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Donald Trump has no idea what has hit him, and it’s a joy to watch
(newrepublic.com)
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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2024
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Hey now, we're only halfway there. Between Biden, Hillary and likely protesters for Palestine it can still be a shit-show convention.
Though fiercely hope not.
I love how Trump's treatment of the Kurds gets a free pass from those protesters.
Or, you know, this? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905
For those who hate clickbait:
I would bet my next paycheck that most of them probably could not even explain what he did to the Kurds.
Most of them didn't know (or knew and did not care) about what Israel has been doing to Palestine for decades now, and were told that this is somehow Joe Biden's fault or some shit.
To be fair (and I was a great supporter of Dark Brandon), Joe Biden has been a huge supporter of Israel including derailing Hillary Clinton's attempt to stop settlement construction (when she was secretary of state).
You do realize that there are Palestinians who live in the US, yes? And they're upset about their friends and families being slaughtered right now? And you're turning your nose up at them and saying, "What about the Kurds, tho"
I love how Trump's promise to deport those protesters gets a free pass from those protesters. My brother is one of them, always ranting about "Genocide Joe" and hating the Democrats passionately despite being (ostensibly) liberal. It's like in his universe the Republicans don't even exist, and I just can't understand his viewpoint.
It's plain as day: They think their "conscious will be clean" and to them that's more important than the lives of millions of Palestinians.
Or maybe they're upset about their friends and families being killed?
Apparently, there's a giant far Left majority in the USA, and the only thing holding it back is the DNC.
[better add the /s, because someone is going to explain that it is true.]
The Repub leadership seems to be clamoring for taking actions on a spectrum between deporting protesters to Gaza or simply nuking Gaza.
Absolutely none of those protestors believe Trump would be better for Palestine. They believe genocide is criminal, and immoral — and can't in good conscience stand behind anyone who supports or enables it, regardless of the threat of something worse.
It may not be diplomatic or cunning, but it isn't rocket science. It's called morality and conviction. Don't be disingenuous.
I don't think you, or other idiots who were willing to give up their vote to allow Trump to win an destroy Palestine, have any fucking idea just how bad it will get if he wins.
Maybe your conscious will be clear, but you will have been directly responsible for the deaths of millions of Palestinians due to your inaction.
That is the reality.
There is no "do nothing" here. Doing nothing is tantamount to aiding in the complete destruction of the Palestinian state and its people. You should be ashamed.
Well you're wrong in multiple ways. Firstly, I'm not American. Secondly, If I were American I would've voted Democrat my entire life, including for Biden and any corporate whore they put forward in a skin suit — probably longer, and more well-informed about the nuances of modern American politics, than you ever will be — but just because I'll suck it up and eat the shit sandwich doesn't mean I'm not gonna call the Democrats corporate whores or genocide enablers, because that is what they objectively are.
There's a real simple solution here. Stop funding and arming a genocidal ethnostate! What a radical concept, huh?
Then I'll explain how the political system works.
A lot of people in the USA like the ethnostate and are happy to keep it going.
If the people who oppose it try to just cut funding they will be voted out and can do nothing.
Mate, I already know America's a proto-fascist failed state. You're not making a solid case for the continuation of American democracy if the majority support genocide. The majority of Germans supported Hitler. But congrats, I guess?
Luckily for you, even with a media wholly owned and operated by an oligarchy who profits from eternal war, there is a solid division in supporting the ethnostate among the people. They just care more about domestic problems and defeating Trump than the oligarchs crimes in the middle east. It's understandable, considering most of what the people actually want is completely ignored by politicians on both sides of the aisle anyway.
Using that logic, the people who supported Biden are directly responsible for the 40,000+ Palestinians who've been killed during his presidency.
It's not being 'disingenuous' it's about living in the real world.
Back in the day, there were escaped slaves and women who couldn't vote who worked for politicians who couldn't assure them that, if elected, they would be able to actually change the laws.
There were plenty of African Americans who volunteered for WW2, knowing first hand about the Jim Crow laws. They decided that supporting the US was the best way to stop something worse.
If you fight against a Joe Biden, knowing that the Trump will be worse, you're not being moral.
What Kurds
😢
(I know about it. I'm making a dark joke.)
Just because you can doesn't mean you have to.
This is whataboutism.
Any time you point out hypocrisy it's a 'what about.'
Don't forget boogaloo fellas and local cops who have been taken in by some kind of propaganda and left-wing useful idiots who got all spun up on internet nonsense to think that the best way to help the Palestinians is to make sure Trump gets elected. I hope not, but the convention has the potential to be a fuckin atom bomb of colliding toxic forces.
I said it before about Biden and I'll say it again about Kamala: the one thing that could sink her chances will be to burn the bridge with pro-palestinian protestors.
It's not up to protestors if Kamala looses, it's up to Kamala.
This is domestic abuse logic
"I have decided to do X, which outcome will be catastrophic, if you do Y. So therefore, if you do Y, it's going to become your fault what will happen."
If you wanna push the Democrats to better outcomes on Gaza, sounds fuckin great. I definitely think that the activism so far has woken them up + it's clearly better than just the only voice they hear that has any teeth being the Israel lobby. But don't play games with the placement of responsibility.
Did I send you the Ralph Nader interview where he talks about how to apply this principle (specifically to the Democrats, I think specifically as pertains to Gaza) productively instead of terroristically?
Then who the fuck are you complaining about?
That's what the protestors are doing you nag, maybe you should stop comparing them to domestic abusers
I am complaining about the people who are trying to make the Democrats lose the general election, with no particular plan to translate that into good action from the Democrats on Gaza, all the while congratulating themselves about what a great and noble thing they're doing. I can cite many of them on Lemmy. I assume that they exist in the real world also, and that a bunch of them will show up this week at the convention.
I am not complaining about the people who are trying to get better outcomes for Gaza, which does in fact include getting concessions from the Democrats including withholding support. Sounds great.
If it's done strategically with the aim of better outcomes for Gaza, then fuckin fantastic. If it's done with a strategy which sort of seems accidentally like maybe it may produce mostly bad electoral outcomes for the Democrats, and not much in the way of good outcomes for Palestinians, then I don't like it.
It's fair that you asked the question you asked. Now that I've explained a little, though, does that make sense? I can't see how it can be a confusing point of view or anything you want to say literally anything to aside from "yes I can agree with that."
Here's Nader talking about good ways to do it. Fuckin fantastic.
Somewhere in my history is (supposedly; it's impossible to know for sure) a Palestinian laying out in extremely passionate detail how disgusted he is with people who are using his dying countrymen to make a bad-faith political argument to try to get the guy elected who will endanger, not just his family still back home, but also his friends and family here, in the US, here and now. I looked for it a little bit but couldn't find it. If you want to hear, I'm happy to dig it up.
There is no form of activism that does not harm the reputation of those who are being protested. And since it seems we're choosing to be vague about who it is who is supposedly crossing this imaginary boundary between good and bad faith protest, I'm going to assume it's arbitrary, based on what you personally find uncomfortable.
I would argue that a lot of the right kind of activism against the genocide in Gaza will in the long run actually help the reputation of the Democrats, because it'll involve educating the public about what is actually going on, at which point the Democrats supporting it will be unpopular, at which point they'll (hopefully 😐) stop doing it and lose this persistent stench of death about them that they currently have to a certain activist population that actually knows what's going on.
I mean I do get your point. My counter-point would be that not everything that harms the reputation of the people being protested is productive activism. It seems like you're persistently not grasping the point that I'm making here.
return2ozma, Linkerbaan, and jimmydoreisalefty I think are crossing this imaginary boundary, because they're not helping the situation or trying to educate anyone about what's going on, just persistently trying to damage the reputation of the people in the best position to do something positive, using attacks both true and false. Ralph Nader and the "uncommitted" voters in Michigan are examples of people who are not crossing the boundary; they are trying to help the Palestinians by putting pressure on the Democrats in ways that are specifically goal oriented and productive. I'm not real concerned about their actions "hurting" the Democrats, or not severely enough concerned to oppose it, because as you said, protesting against someone does (I would add sometimes) harm their reputation, and them's the breaks. Does that help make it more concrete?
IDK why you're saying I'm being vague. I'm being very specific about what behavior I do and don't support. If you want me to pick out particular people or explain what of their behavior I do and don't support, if that's helpful, I'm fine doing that too.
I'm not getting into another effort posting disagreement with you.
You're entitled to your perspective on what you view as 'crossing the line', but you'd be well advised to acknowledge that there isn't any objective standard for it.
I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't think it has any basis outside your personal feelings on the matter.
The democrats should be confronted by as many people as possible in support of a Gaza ceasefire. That includes convincing others that the issue requires action from them, too.
My objective standard is, what is going to help the Palestinians? And what is masquerading as that but (in large part) not going to help them but just going to risk a catastrophe for them that is continuation and widening of what's already their hell on earth?
That's not my personal feelings. I'm sure we disagree on what the outcome of different courses of action are, and that's fine, but that's why I am saying this and what my goals are in saying this. If what you're doing is the first thing then all good and I have no complaints about it.
Fair enough. You started talking to me, man. I was just talking about the convention. I'm gonna be giving criticism to people I think are making a mistake, just like you would give criticism to the Democrats or to me, if you think there's a mistake happening. All good from my side.
I mean, they're already "supporting" a ceasefire. They've been doing that. That's the issue, is Netanyahu is laughing their faces and telling them fuck your ceasefire, and they're not then escalating with him. But I don't think the issue blocking progress is just that they need to want a ceasefire very badly, and then that will solve the issue.
At the risk of repeating myself: there's no objective measure for this. Creating pressure for action always involves risking some damage, that's what activism is. Your standard doesn't mean anything for determining what level of pressure is acceptable because all of it risks damaging electiral odds to some degree. If anything, your standard would seem to suggest that the only form of protest is that which doesn't risk anything, at which point it becomes purely aesthetic.
You mean like sharing reporting on the matter? How does this exclude people like r2o and linkerbann?
So back when I was saying "I'm not real concerned about their actions 'hurting' the Democrats...". What do you think I meant with that whole explanation / that whole paragraph?
I think you're personally confused, because that statement is in direct contradiction to this other statement of yours:
You say that you're fine with hurting the reputation of democrats, but your material concern over some forms of protest/activism is that it's going to "damage the reputation of people in the best position to do something positive".
The war in Gaza must end. Israeli occupation must end. Israel must face consequences for their war crimes. Until those conditions are met, I think all forms of protest are fair game. Comparing the defense of those protests as "abuser logic" is a crazy weird way of assigning blame to people holding the US and Israel to account for the war crimes they are currently and continually complicit in, especially when you notionally agree with the subject of those protests.
edit: just to illustrate the absurdity of that comparison -
The US and the pro-zionist democrats are materially supporting the actual abuse and genocide of Palestinians, and you're suggesting the people pushing for an end to the abuse are the ones abusing the abuser.
Incorrect. My prime material concern is that these forms of protest/activism are much more likely to hurt Palestinians than to help them. I can’t believe that I need to explain this this many times.
If you persist in telling me that my own argument is something different than what it is, I am going to report you for strawmanning. Either start dealing with my argument as it actually is, or stop talking to me.
Hurt them through what mechanism, exactly?
Edit: this is why i constantly have to spell out the implications of your arguments to you, because you bury them in verbose explanations that you hide behind and cry foul when I bring them out into objective language. You're saying that by hurting democrats' electoral chances, it risks bringing more harm to Palestinians because republicans would be worse. But hurting democratic chances is the thing we're actually discussing: any protest against continual Israeli defense aid will hurt democratic chances if and until they commit to stopping the aid. Those protests can only hurt democrats if they continue to avoid addressing the subject of that protest in a satisfactory way.
Kamala has done nothing more than signal support for a ceasefire, but has largely avoided any language that would indicate what she would do if she ran up against the (predictable) resistance of Israel to commit to one. I (and the other protestors) are not satisfied by that ambiguity, so we continue to pressure her campaign to make a firm commitment. A part of that pressure is going to drag down enthusiasm by raising the issue repeatedly, but that is am unavoidable part of protest. That you are satisfied by her soft language around the issue and we are not doesn't suddenly make that form of protest invalid, and claiming something as an objective standard doesn't make that subjectivity disappear.
By getting Trump elected
I already explained it all… I mean it’s fine if you disagree with my calculus and think that what ozma is doing is the best way for good outcomes for Palestinians. I can disagree with that, and it is fine; it’s just talking. But it seems like because what I’m saying isn’t what you want to hear, you keep pretending that I am saying something different (saying that any criticism of Democrats is not allowed or etc), or like it’s too vague to make any sense, or etc etc.
People can have different points of view and still be both aiming for good things. It is possible. They can even talk to each other and understand the points of view without ever really coming to 100% agreement on details. It is actually more common than not; usually the only places where everyone sees it exactly the same way and anyone who disagrees is some wild enemy who’s trying to defeat all the progress, is in weird MAGA-like political monocultures.
... by hurting their reputation through protest.
See my edit above. I haven't misstated your argument at all, I am presenting you with its underlying inconsistency. Referring to your opinion as 'calculus' doesn't suddenly make it objective in any meaningful way. I don't hold my opinion as objective standard, but I also don't accuse those who disagree with me of abuse.
I see the subtle accusation in this statement, and I would probably point out that the 'weird MAGA-like political monoculture' is likely one where protestors are blamed as having 'abuser logic'.
Yes! You have grasped it.
I don’t give a shit inherently about the Democrats’ reputation. I’m fine with actions that may hurt them in the election, as long as they’re aligned with better prospects for the Palestinians. Actions that have a lot of risks on the “getting Trump elected” side and not a lot of benefits on the “getting better behavior from the Democrats” side, I’m not in favor of.
How can that possibly be confusing? I feel like I’ve restated it enough now. If you’re really determined not to pick it up, I will not keep repeating and trying to force you to, though.
It’s not all that subtle. It sounds to me like you’re part of a political monoculture as I described. Most people even in political discussions are not this obstinate about pretending that something they don’t personally agree with must therefore be some crazy thing that doesn’t make any sense, and spending most of your time talking with people who see it exactly like you do is one explanation for maybe how you got to be that way.
Lmao, fuckin.... no, you're not! What could you possibly mean by this? You're fine with hurting democratic chances as long as, what, the alternative candidate is better than or equal-to the democrats when it comes to saving Palestinian lives? Doesn't this mean that you aren't fine with it in our current reality where our only options are Kamala and Trump? Or are you suggesting you'd be ok with it if there was a third-party candidate with a better policy?
Any form of protest risks damaging democratic electoral odds, it is only a matter of degree. I've been saying this the entire time. I'm not at all confused about what it is you're arguing, you just don't like saying it outright because it sounds (and is) arbitrary, petty, and completely subjective. When a protest gets big enough to present a genuine threat to the Democratic electoral machine, suddenly it's the protestors fault for, what, successfully raising the issue and pressuring the democrats? Lol fuuuuuucccckkkk offfffff. If a substantial portion of the electorate is turned off by their stance on an issue being protested, it's not fault of the protestors, it is the thing being protested that's doing the damage. The Palestinian genocide and the US's complicity in it is happening in real-life objective terms. Protestors are simply pointing out the US's continued roll in it and asking the democrats to put an end to it (quite peacefully i might add). Fuck, even simply making a definitive statement or commitment to it would be great, but they continue walking on egg-shells because they still value Israel as an ally more than they care about Israel committing war crimes.
Your "calculus" is simply 'democrats have moved as much as they are willing, and any more protest will hurt their electoral odds, so let's top now'. There is a HUGE, MASSIVE GULF of subjectivity in that thinking. Instead of acknowledging that as subjective, you keep doubling down on what is essentially your personal gut feeling (which, i might point out, has already been proven quite wrong in one notable example this electoral season).
You are entitled to your opinion. I realize you are less optimistic than I am when it comes to realistic political responses, and more pessimistic about the risk of the protests impacting democratic odds. That's perfectly fine. But don't confuse your opinion with objectivity, and certainly don't compare those who disagree with you as 'abusers' (i keep giving you opportunity to amend your language here, but you don't seem like you want to)
I am fine with hurting Democratic chances as a side effect as part of a campaign which will produce better behavior from the Democrats. Sorry, I should have made that clear. I think there’s been a slight (pitifully slight) shift in the Democratic line on Gaza this year, and I think a lot of that is because of how much pro-Palestinian activism was creating real credible threats to them electorally. To me that is fine, that’s a good thing.
It would be great if our system supported a third option, but it doesn’t 😢. Not in this election. I think advocating for reform of the system in the future, and pushing for more humanity from the Democrats, is the best we can do for now.
Anything which actually goes as far as leading to Trump getting elected for real will be an unmitigated catastrophe for the Palestinians (even relative to their existing level of catastrophe which is already hell on earth). I think they might literally all be dead or pushed into Egypt by the end of a Trump term. (They might be at the end of a Harris term, too, but it’s at least less likely).
No. I don’t know how many times I need to keep explaining that this is not what I am saying, or why you keep not listening to me when I do. Do it one more time and I will report you for strawmanning and see if the mods feel that that represents approaching the conversation in bad faith, and either way just end my side of the conversation.
It is highly relevant whether the thing being protested is actually happening.
So e.g. when the uncommitted voters punish the Democrats for their support of Israel, I’m in favor of that. When ozma makes something up about the Democrats that isn’t accurate, which only hurts their chances but doesn’t do anything productive for anyone except Trump, I’m against that.
Why do I keep having to explain this? This is such a weird conversation.
100% agree
I feel like just typing again the same thing I have been typing will not be productive here
Let me try just pure pattern recognition
Is that what I am saying?
Pick one
No, I do not. I can take another stab at explaining it, but first let me ask something: Would you agree that Trump would be an even worse catastrophe for Palestinians (as well as many many other vulnerable people) than a second term of the existing Democratic status quo?
This is it, I think. If it were just about misinformation, we'd be having a different conversation. I don't think anyone here would defend sharing outright false information. But that isn't the only complaint you've had about Ozma; you've complained that they only post bad things about democrats, not just that some of them are incorrect (not even incorrect in entirety, sometimes simply incorrect it its framing, or maybe even factually accurate but simply uncharitable in its framing). I disagree with suggesting that behavior is 'over the line', outside of any alleged misinformation. Similarly, if there are pro-Palestinian protestors at the DNC today, I wouldn't classify those people as ""useful idiots"" (I cannot put enough scare-quotes around this). The democrats have not moved hardly at all on their Israel policy, why wouldn't they be legitimate protestors? I am indignant that I have to keep defending loosely-targeted attacks against protestors coming from you, when you are still being vague about what makes a protest or online protest behavior something that you consider to be "actually leading to Trump getting elected". How the fuck do you measure that? What proof to you have that Ozma or Linkerbann or anyone else is "actually leading to Trump getting elected", or that their building popular discontent around democrats on this issue isn't "helping lead to better behavior from democrats"? Fuck you for accusing me of misrepresenting your argument, when your argument seems completely dependent on some imagined future that only you could possibly see. Honestly, 'actually leading to x' is effectively meaningless. Who the fuck knows if something "actually leads" to something? And it also still incorrectly places the responsibility of the protestor, who is protesting against a policy they would like to see changed, instead of the person in power, who is consistently refusing to take meaningful action toward better policy.
I reject your question.
FFS, how about you apply your logic on your own example, then? If there are massive palestinian protests in the DNC this week that constantly interrupt the proceedings, is that an example of a good or bad protest? Is there additional information that you need to make that determination?
Or maybe online: if there's a user who exclusively posts (factually accurate) information about the Democrat's culpability in the ongoing Palestinian genocide, is that a good or bad protest behavior? What makes it so? How do you know if that behavior "actually leads to x or y outcome" without traveling to the future to see what impact it had?
I'll answer your question with another question: would you agree that supporting any amount of genocide is beyond indefensible? Hint: the answer should be fairly obvious and the question should feel incredibly condescending.
If I wanted to be petty I'd apply your own logic on your own behavior in defending democrats on their inaction. Does mozz's behavior lead to better or worse policy from democrats? Does making excuses for their lack or response improve their policy on Gaza? No? Well fuck, looks like he's just another useful idiot, then. 🤷♂️ Absent any concrete qualifiers i guess anyone or everyone could be a bad-actor
Biden seems to be going all in for Harris, but according to the AP, the DNC still hasn't updated their paperwork to reflect Biden dropping out, so it could very well end up a shit show.
I think Biden will be alright to be honest, even should he stumble through his speech it's not too bad given he's not running anymore. Just look at the joint Harris/Biden adress the other day about the pharmaceutical prices. Not a great speech by Biden, but everyone is sort of in "alright grandpa, let's get you to bed" mode.
The protests can get ugly, though I truly pray they won't. But another unfortunate reaction/statement about Palestine from Harris would be bad, and worst case the protests get violent and actual fights break out - which would be bad bad.
I also don't see why we're opening the Hillary box again even though it's just a speech. But what do I know.
How about addressing the ongoing support for genocide, instead of blaming it on the people protesting it?
I hope it's a major shit-show. I want to see how Harris handles Gaza.