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Protestation (discuss.tchncs.de)
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[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 114 points 11 months ago

I'm all for the general gist, but "no criminals?" Bullshit.

They had slavery. Don't imagine it was a utopia just because colonizers hadn't made it worse yet.

[-] Bye@lemmy.world 50 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

They, like most other people in the world, had slavery, genocide, theft, the death penalty, and all sorts of other bad things. None of this excuses colonialism, at all. But to pretend that native peoples were some kind of wonderful noble savages is very very racist in and of itself. Even this comment is fairly racist because I just implied some kind of homogenous culture in North American indigenous peoples, which was obviously not the case.

[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago

Yeah but they didnt have a single instance of movie piracy.

YoU wOUldNt dOwNLoAd a HorSe

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 10 points 11 months ago

The self flagellation is a bit much, but I get it.

[-] TheFriar@lemm.ee 6 points 11 months ago

I mean, the quote is from a first nations person. The only one “pretending that native peoples were some kind of wonderful noble savage” is the person the quote is attributed to. A holy man of the Lakota tribe. Calling him discussing his tribe racist is…weird.

[-] phx@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

Comparison of "we" versus "our white brothers" is a racial one and not a tribal one.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

Criminality as we understand it is a European concept. Native Americans had relatively advanced societies before the colonial settlers came through and genocided hundreds of tribes. Their politics were pretty complex, but they didn't have criminals the way we understand the term.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago

I wasn't able to dig much up on precolonial crime and punishment. Where did you find this?

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 16 points 11 months ago

I had some better luck digging with pre colonial natives crime US

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3n0u88/what_sort_of_criminal_law_did_native_american/ is of particular interest

[-] iheartneopets@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago

Who exactly are you talking about when you say "they"? Indigenous peoples weren't all the same culture and didn't have all the same cultural practices.

[-] Psychodelic@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

You seem like an expert on the topic, do you know if they had chattel slavery?

[-] Zoboomafoo@slrpnk.net 12 points 11 months ago

You seem like an expert on the topic, do those goalposts come with wheels?

[-] Psychodelic@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Uh that was my first comment. How did I move the goalposts? How would you have asked the question? The other comment gave a decent answer. Not sure why you're offended. It's a legit question

[-] Zoboomafoo@slrpnk.net 1 points 11 months ago

I read your comment as being as snarky as mine was. I didn't realize it was an honest question, sorry.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 2 points 11 months ago

WTF

I was all set to type up a little semi agreeing comment about how it was a continent-spanning complex mixture of very different tribes with different cultures and practices, only some of whom practice slavery

But I don't really know what I'm talking about so I read a little and I got distracted by this

Several tribes held captives as hostages for payment.[2][3] Various tribes also practiced debt slavery or imposed slavery on tribal members who had committed crimes; full tribal status would be restored as the enslaved worked off their obligations to the tribal society.[2][3]

Slaves would sometimes be killed in potlatches, to signify the owners' contempt for property.[citation needed]

And this

Captive-taking was most often used to replace a dead loved one within the family with a new person. The captive would then take on this deceased person’s sexual or labour-related capacities.

What the fuck was going on with the Native Americans

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 months ago

People being monstrous to each other is the norm. We're the weirdos.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 1 points 11 months ago

Tru dat

It also helps that for the most part we have food and shelter and indoor plumbing refrigeration and etc

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 54 points 11 months ago

Every group had their own culture. There is no universal First Nations/ Native American culture. Beware of anyone expressing pan-indigenous viewpoints.

[-] butwhyishischinabook@lemmy.world 46 points 11 months ago

So are we just propping up noble savage ideology now?

[-] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 22 points 11 months ago

OP is about to reinvent anarcoprimitivism

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

No we are pushing that exile, torture, and capital punishment are better than rehabilitation

[-] urist 37 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

This quote appears to be from Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions about John Lame Deer’s tribe, the Lakota people, and his experiences.

I didn’t read the book I just wanted to find out where the quote was from. It is from one man’s lived experiences in his tribe.

Communities with less took care of those who were the worst off, why can’t we?

[-] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 17 points 11 months ago

Communities with less took care of those who were the worst off, why can’t we?

We can. We choose not to. There's a difference.

Take that as an indication of everyone you interact with during your day on where their priorities lie.

[-] xenoclast@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago
[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

This is always such a stupid take.

Like whenever I say humanity should be purged there's always that one guy "tHaT iNcLuDeS yOu"

No shit. I'm part of the problem whether I want to be or not.

[-] xenoclast@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Lol and you thought mine was a dumb take. If you survive the next few decades your post history is gonna cripple you with cringe.

[-] ASeriesOfPoorChoices@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

lol ur cringe

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 2 points 11 months ago

Yeah, attribution for quotes is kinda important - especially when there's so many people faking native American quotes out there. Any time you see something about "native wisdom" or a a quote, you should immediately look for attribution. At the very least, you should get the nation/tribe and time period of the quote. Otherwise, it's pablum

[-] gabbbbby 20 points 11 months ago

it's insane to me that so called "human sacrifices" in Central America happened at a lower rate than public executions were happening in Europe.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 4 points 11 months ago

In those times there were only a handful of gods to appease, but thousands of capitalists.

[-] FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today 18 points 11 months ago

Really cool quotes but they also didn't have much in the way of academics and professional specializations. Simple solutions to complex problems are doomed to fail and cause harm.

[-] psud@aussie.zone 20 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

They also fought each other over access to land. We are so much more peaceful than any pre-industrial civilisation

[-] spiderplant@lemm.ee 21 points 11 months ago

We're still doing that and I would argue that we are no more peaceful, we just now have a NIMBY approach to conflict

[-] Glytch@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

They also fought each other over access to land. We are so much more peaceful than any pre-industrial civilisation

Said without irony as the IDF slaughters thousands in order to control access to Gaza. Not to mention Russia and Ukraine and the dozens of other conflicts that the media doesn't cover because their not in places where the West can profit. Industrialization only increased our killing capacity.

[-] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago

Meanwhile, the imperialistic native Americans of my side of the Americas were conquering everything that moved left to right before the conquerors from the other side of the world did the same to them. Lol. Skill issue.

[-] mrgreyeyes@feddit.nl 4 points 11 months ago

Eye for an eye rules. The good old times.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

Wetiko is the great evil of modern civ.

this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2024
451 points (100.0% liked)

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