They should be cheaper to repair since there are less parts. The added costs are related to design decisions.
When things are welded together instead of paneled, it’s more expensive. When battery packs have to be replaced in their entirety instead of individual packs or cells, it’s more expensive. Etc. Etc.
Exactly. Example: on the Tesla Model 3, many of the panels (such as the rear quarter panel) are glued on instead of bolted/clipped on. So if you graze a stationary object and damage that (it happens), you're on the hook for a very expensive repair since you need a repair shop that specializes in how to deal with that (plus the actual time to do the repair, which is more complicated). Update the designs to make them more repair friendly and the cost of ownership comes way down.
What car has removable rear quarters? I can't think of any that aren't welded on to the C-pillar/roof/trunk.
Basically all modern car body panels are held together with basically a really strong glue.
This is literally every single car on the road
Surely you don't mean to imply built-in obsolescence, do you?
Just because Tesla made a lot of bad choices, that doesn't mean all EVs for all time will always be more expensive.
This is what happens when you can DRM every piece of the car. Tesla is being taken as a model, and it's extremely anti consumer
I don't think theyre being used as an example at all. A lot of these first generation platforms are still just trying to figure stuff out, and unless they all glob onto an existing platform, they'll never deviate from one another. Competition is good, especially to drive innovation in the early days of new fields of products like these. Most of the bigger companies have opened their platforms or pieces thereof, but that doesn't need to mean open-source. We should rely on legislature and right to repair to reign some of the anti-competitive bullshit they all pull in though, I do agree with that.
Sorry but there just isn't that much to figure out. Cars have had electric motors and batteries for as long as cars have had motors (literally - early cars didn't have a combustion engine).
You take an ordinary car, bolt a big ass motor and battery to it somewhere, and you're done. Nothing innovative needs to happen and there should be no repairability compromises. If anything they should be easier to repair.
Tesla's obsession with complex body parts is inexcusable. I used to work in the car crash insurance industry - we put Tesla in the same category as Bugatti/McLaren/etc. They're that expensive to repair... and unlike those supercars, nobody is going to be willing to spend the money get a Model 3 back to show room condition.
Get yourself in a minor fender bender like the one below and your insurance company is going to buy you a new car (the owner of this car was given a $45,000 repair quote):
With a conventional car, those panels would have likely been plastic (cheap to replace) or else metal but simple designs that can be bent back into shape by someone who knows how to use a panel beating hammer. What you don't see on the photo is all the weld joints that have been stressed and failed on the Tesla. It can potentially be months of work to get that car fixed and the insurance company doesn't want to provide a hire car for all that time - so they just pay out the value of the car and leave you to buy a new one.
Friend...it's not as easy as you think. If you imagine every step of the way from pressing a pedal to what happens on the drive platform, it is absolutely NOT simple whatsoever. It's not just "go" and "stop", it's a dozen steps of software on an RTOS moving so fast as to be imperceptible as a normal physical pedal interaction would, controlling multiple motors at once, synchronizing power, rotations, and detecting traction, and that's just pressing the acceleration pedal. All the other safety systems engaged in the process of they exist are very sophisticated. All of this then culminates in an experience that hopefully eulmulates what you describe, but it is certainly NOT just strapping some different motors to the same kind of car. Don't even get me started on the platform suspension automations and efficiency systems.
You're just not very well read on the subject, so you might want to go catch up before you keep spouting this nonsense and looking kind of ill-informed.
All this to say though, I am NOT sticking up for Tesla. I'm sticking up for the progress in the industry. Yeah, some shit needs to get figured out for sure, but that doesn't mean people should stick with the old way of doing that "same old bullshit" until it gets figured out in a lab somewhere. Progress needs to get made, and this is how it's shaking out.
To your point about that wreck, that sure looks like it wasn't the Tesla drivers fault, so it shouldn't impact them.
I’ll probably buy an electric car one day, but I’ll be paying a lot of attention to its repairability. We have to make sure brands understand that « programmed obsolescence » isn’t accepted by everyone!
You might want to take a look at Aptera. If we're lucky they'll sell their first cars in 1-5 years
Why do you think Aptera will be better on this issue? I was very disappointed by the decision not to paint their vehicles. It’s hard to see how that won’t lead to a substandard product.
It looks very modular, with company claiming a right to repair philosophy.
The painting seems to be aiming for a lower emissions vehicle, cheaper costs. Given that the body is not metal replacing panels should be easier if they get damaged.
Not to mention battery size doesn't need to be as large, so replacing it should be viable.
I'm hopeful but still got see how everything shakes out.
Cheaper costs for sure. Not sure about the rest. I understand the environmental costs associated with paint but it’s an important part of weather proofing in the current production model. Vinyl wraps just aren’t going to perform as well or last as long, are shifting a big cost onto the consumer, and raise questions about the longevity of the product. This will also have large environmental cost due to shortened lifespan.
I’m glad they’ve mentioned right to repair but I’d like to see where that rhetoric is backed by action. Otherwise it’s just more capitalist spin.
I think I heard mentioned that they expect the wrap to last 5-10 years, which isn't great, but not terrible.
I don't think they have a choice with right to repair, as changing their stance would be detrimental to their following.
The typical number from the industry is 3-7. And realistically, we’re looking at the low end here—sun exposure is the most important factor. It’s a fucking solar car. Maybe if you live in Alaska and park in a garage all the time it could make it to 10 years but if I buy an aptera I would park it in the sun. I also live in one of the sunniest climates in the US. I don’t want to have to spend thousands redoing this every 3 years.
I thought about putting down a deposit but decided against it for this reason. I’ll want to see how they do for a few years on the road before buying in. Especially with the recent price increases.
I put down a deposit recently, like last month, but I have a similar outlook. I wanna see how they do after a few years to see how they hold up first. But if they look good and start selling like hotcakes I might be glad I put a deposit down early. Otherwise I'll cancel and get a Chevy bolt begrudgingly.
I wanna be optimistic because I do want Aptera to at least push the whole industry towards more repairable efficient and cheep evs.
I hope so but I just feel like disappointment is inevitable in this corporate production model. Even if people set out to do the right thing, the economic system forces people to behave the same ways.
Even if they turn out to be what they are, they will just get acquired at the end of their cycle of enshittification. If this shit is not regulated, the market weeds out consumer friendly options.
I hadn't heard of them, but looking it up it seems like tech startup garbage. You don't need to re-invent the car. It looks like they made a silly design just to stand out. It also sacrafices a lot for that design. It's a two seater with very little storage room and probably not great for taller people like me. It also seems to have very little space for crumple-zones, so I'm curious as to how safe it is in an accident.
They listen and say "We hear you but the data shows you much rather have the Witcher 3 running on your dashboard and webcam more easily monetize this."
Unfortunately used EVs are still decades away from being viable since after 10 years you hit the point you most likely start needing to replace the battery. You aren't buying used if you need to invest more in replacement parts than the car itself.
I'm fine with that though, we need vehicles on rails instead. 80% of all microplastic are from tires.
Batteries don’t suddenly die, but lose capacity over time. I believe batteries are already demonstrating 80+% capacity after ten years, and they should only get better as technology improves.
LFP batteries used in lower end models, such as Tesla Model 3/Y Standard, are expected to hold capacity after many more charge cycles
Replacing EV batteries is very rare, even in older or very used EV's
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They don't seem to mention how fast batteries actually degrade, how old those vehicles are, what climate conditions they are used or how many charging cycles are on those. It's all well and good if the 15000 cars have a low amount of battery replacements but without knowing the conditions it's kinda useless.
Like where I am the temperature goes from -20C to +30C pretty much every year and in those conditions the makers rate the lifespan from 8 - 12 years.
It would be nice if they provided that information but the data isn't useless without that information. It helps show that there's a pattern where batteries only lose 10% capacity after being driven a lot.
You can assume that EV's with higher milage will have been charged far more often than those with less mileage.
Canadian here and yeah, it can get down to -30C and +30C here but remember all batteries are insulated and they run glycol though them to keep them at a constant temperature which negates any external factors like weather. Polestar does their testing in the Artic circle so it's even colder so if it works well there, it'll work well anywhere.
With more EV's sold and more time passed, only then will we better understand battery life but based on what I'm seeing, it's a minor issue that won't stop me from buying an EV.
Tire runoff is nasty. There’s recently been salmon die off in the NW from a preservative chemical in tires.
The title is misleading, because nothing stops ICE car manufacturers from adopting the same unicast build bodies of those cars, and then EV will still be more expensive to make but with similar repair and lower maintenance cost.
But I really hope that common sense will prevail, even though I am doubtful.
Time to standardize connectors, control panels, battery sizes, motors etc.
They will never be cheaper. Just the costs of the battery, or they do shady bussiness tricks, like hooking you in cheap initial costs but horeandus repair/replacement bills.
An electric motor is SIGNIFICANTLY more simple to produce than an entire internal combustion engine. There are far fewer moving parts on an electric car than a gasoline one.
The battery is a significant cost, but not all cars need to have 300 miles of range. It is also possible that once the market is saturated (i.e. - several decades), that recycled battery packs will be cheaper to produce than batteries built from raw materials.
The major reason why electric cars are so expensive right now is because there are far fewer of them, and the ones that are being made have a target market of an upper-middle class household. They're luxury/status symbols as much as anything else. Secondarily, there isn't a large used electric car market yet.
There is a large potential for cost reductions. Assuming technology continues to improve, electric cars will drop below the price of gas and diesel for everyday driving. Internal combustion engines will most likely be reduced to specialty vehicles.
Also, as we realize that we don't need 400+ miles of range in a commuter car, cheaper battery chemistries make a lot of sense, despite their shorter range per kg or lb
But the battery pack is far and away more expensive than the engine. Shit far and away more expensive than the engine AND transmission. Shit like half an EVs price is the battery.
Yeah, it's about the price of a full engine and transmission replacement for an internal combustion car.
I wonder if this kind of thing might make conversions into older cars more viable. If the body and the million computers etc will cost heaps to fix in a newish EV, that might mean an increased supply of electric drivetrains at the wreckers. They're not exactly a drop-in proposition but having the parts available has to be a good start.
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