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submitted 8 months ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] General_Effort@lemmy.world 63 points 8 months ago

The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea. They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is clear: To build and maintain those robots.

[-] Sciaphobia@lemm.ee 18 points 8 months ago

What's that from? The Simpsons?

[-] General_Effort@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

The Secret War of Lisa Simpson, Season 8, Episode 25. First aired in 1997.

Clip. Voiced by Willem Dafoe.

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[-] NobodyElse@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago

Yes. I’m a man of few words.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 8 points 8 months ago

I think they are perfectly cromulent words.

[-] Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz 13 points 8 months ago

Perhaps instead we could just restructure our epistemically confabulated reality in a way that doesn't inevitably lead to unnecessary conflict due to diverging models that haven't grown the necessary priors to peacefully allow comprehension and the ability exist simultaneously.

breath

We are finally coming to comprehend how our brains work, and how intelligent systems generally work at any scale, in any ecosystem. Subconsciously enacted social systems included.

We're seeing developments that make me extremely optimistic, even if everything else is currently on fire. We just need a few more years without self focused turds blowing up the world.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 8 months ago

robots, satellites, or for that matter fighter jets or artillery can't hold ground, all these units work in support of infantry. the future belongs to what we already have: combined arms warfare

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[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

States don’t concede wars because of equipment losses—they concede when the cost in lives becomes an existential threat to the ruling regimes. Drones fighting drones means nothing to governments unless there are human lives at stake when the drones break through.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 59 points 8 months ago

Can we please just fight all of our wars on the moon with giant robots like God intended?

[-] tal@lemmy.today 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Not as things stand from a treaty standpoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

The Outer Space Treaty, formally the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies, is a multilateral treaty that forms the basis of international space law. Negotiated and drafted under the auspices of the United Nations, it was opened for signature in the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union on 27 January 1967, entering into force on 10 October 1967.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty_of_1967

Article IV

States Parties to the Treaty undertake not to place in orbit around the earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass destruction, install such weapons on celestial bodies, or station such weapons in outer space in any other manner.

The moon and other celestial bodies shall be used by all States Parties to the Treaty exclusively for peaceful purposes. The establishment of military bases, installations and fortifications, the testing of any type of weapons and the conduct of military manœuvres on celestial bodies shall be forbidden. The use of military personnel for scientific research or for any other peaceful purposes shall not be prohibited. The use of any equipment or facility necessary for peaceful exploration of the moon and other celestial bodies shall also not be prohibited.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago
[-] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Well, Russia hasn't actually violated it yet. We just have intelligence that it was being considered.

If the treaty breaks down, then, yeah, maybe we could see war on the Moon in the future.

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[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 39 points 8 months ago

Drones currently outpace their countermeasurs. This will definitely not be a thing forever. I think the effectiveness of cheap drones will go down as be countermeasures are invented.

We already see new very effective military drone jammers starting to come out

[-] eleitl@lemmy.ml 18 points 8 months ago

Onboard AI guidance is not difficult.

[-] KeenFlame@feddit.nu 9 points 8 months ago
[-] perestroika@lemm.ee 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Both of you are right.

It's difficult, but how difficult depends on the task you set. If the task is "maintain manually initiated target lock on a clearly defined object on an empty field, despite the communications link breaking for 10 seconds" -> it is "give a team of coders half a year" difficult. It's been solved before, the solution just needs re-inventing and porting to a different platform.

If it's "identify whether an object is military, whether it is frienly or hostile, consider if it's worth attacking, and attack a camouflaged target in a dense forest", then it's currently not worth trying.

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[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago
[-] eleitl@lemmy.ml 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Tracking a moving object in realtime with video is a standard task for a machine learning engineer. You can do it on an embedded platform with ML hardware support. I don't know what hardware newer Lancets use but they can already do it according from developer reports from Telegram channels like e.g Разработчик БПЛА.

[-] Warl0k3@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Honestly, I was just objecting to the use of "AI". We've had both fire and forget and loitering munitions for decades now, neither of which use ML. Will it happen? Sure. For now, ML/AI is too unreliable to be trusted in a deployed direct attack platform, and we dont have computing hardware powerful enough to run ML models that we can jam in a missile.

(Though yeah we run tons of models against drone data feeds, none of those are done onboard...)

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[-] d00ery@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

A combination of GPS, or even inertial based guidance to get them to the target area and then some simple vehicle / object identification, I'd think those are possible.

[-] turkishdelight@lemmy.ml 6 points 8 months ago

GPS is usually the first thing to be jammed in the battlefield.

[-] cynar@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

GPS is useful, but not required for operation. Inertial guidance, and ground tracking cameras can easily maintain a good position sense, while completely RF passive. This is also already normal on many toy drones.

You would also want to jam it over a large area. That jamming is akin to a "kick me" sign, in neon lights.

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[-] cynar@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Edit, apparently I'm an idiot and my ability to tell truth from fiction is a lot worse than I thought.

In my defence however, all the parts are completely viable. I also saw it mixed in with Boston dynamics videos.

I'll leave the original comment for context of my folly.

The US already has them.

There are single shot drones, designed to be deployed into a building, or cave system. They then use cameras etc to navigate, while running face recognition. When they find their target, they fly just in front of it. The shaped C4 charge is designed to reduce their head to red mist, while not risking those close by.

AI + cheap drones will completely change warfare. Probably on the same level as the tank, or machine gun.

[-] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago

The US already has them.

Do you have a source for this? These sound uncannily close to the Slaughterbots short film...

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[-] Diplomjodler@feddit.de 4 points 8 months ago

You can't be very knowledgeable on the topic.

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[-] turkishdelight@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I will be very suprised if this isn't already happening.

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[-] cynar@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

The only reliable counter to a drone is likely another drone.

I suspect Peter F Hamilton got it close, in the Confederation series, with WASPs. They are space based weapon platforms. They carry a mix of offensive and defensive subsystems, and operate with swarm logic.

I could easily see a larger drone carrying a swarm of 1 shot micro drones. When close, some would be sacrificed to get better sensor data, others would go on the attack. Conversely, a defensive target would launch their own swarm. It's goal would be to stop the attackers getting a good shot on a high value target. It might also counterattack, either against the mother ship drone, or backtracking to find the launch site.

Jamming would also be part of this. A jammer could easily cut off the swarm from external data sources. Live satellite or remote surveillance systems would be cut. Point to point lasers are far harder, as are burst transmissions. Local sensor drones could easily punch short range data back, or paint targets, until they are destroyed by defensive systems.

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7ym1zkda8

Anti-air guns are the countermeasure. RADAR good enough to detect drones + an aimbot and programmable air-burst round to "shotgun" your pellets to damage those soft plastic bits.

We're going back to WW2 tech. AA guns were considered obsolete because Helicopters + Missiles had more range. But now we need to build cheaper AA Guns for the anti-drone role.

AA Guns are also useful vs infantry, so in an infantry vs infantry fight, having an AA Gun platform will be useful even without any drones around. Airburst and rapid fire is always useful, and I expect the computers that make RADAR possible will be far cheaper today than decades past.

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[-] Doug7070@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago

There are in fact a huge number of reliable counters to drones, including but not limited to anti-aircraft gun systems, anti-aircraft lasers, RF jamming devices (especially effective against cheap/makeshift drones), and several more. Drones are currently an emergent threat without a robust countermeasure scheme, but given their massive role in the Ukraine war that is not going to go unaddressed for long. From a purely mechanical standpoint, small drone munitions are also physically very vulnerable, making them readily destroyed by anti-air autocannon fire or even laser weapons if you assume RF jamming will not solve the problem.

[-] evranch@lemmy.ca 4 points 8 months ago

Between GPS (jammable but likely gets you into the target area), dead reckoning, optical flow sensors and increasingly impressive onboard camera processing, RF jamming will soon be irrelevant.

Almost a decade ago I was flying agricultural mapping missions that were 99% autonomous, and the parts that weren't were problems a military drone doesn't have (soft launch and landing)

The clear counter is autocannons, likely fully automated themselves to manage large swarms. The other would be cheap anti-drone missiles that either are basically a drone themselves or a glorified model rocket. Possibly tiny, cheap and fast interceptors launched from fixed-wing drones. The weak point of drones is literally their physical weakness.

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[-] tal@lemmy.today 25 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Western countries have been slow to absorb these lessons. Simple and cheap weapons will not replace big, high-end platforms, but they will complement them. The Pentagon is belatedly embarking on Replicator, an initiative to build thousands of low-cost drones and munitions able to take on China’s enormous forces. Europe is even further behind. Its ministers and generals increasingly believe that they could face another major European war by the end of the decade. If so, investment in low-end drones needs to grow urgently. Moreover, ubiquitous drones will require ubiquitous defences—not just on battlefields but also in cities at peace.

I think that any war determined by who can churn out more low-end drones is going to be dominated by China, given their overwhelming share of the consumer market. Consumer drones are made there because China has comparative advantage.

That will only change if the basic methods of manufacture change, like, production is far more heavily automated. And even then, it's not clear to me that China has a disadvantage in industrial automation.

I think a more-interesting technology question is who has better counters to low-end drones. There, I can imagine room for a technological advantage. As things stand today, though, we really don't have a compelling answer, and we probably should have come up with one by now.

[-] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 8 months ago

These flying IEDs can be defeated with some simple radio jamming. They will fall out of the sky without a remote control signal.

[-] eleitl@lemmy.ml 12 points 8 months ago

AI guidance does not rely on remote.

[-] tal@lemmy.today 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

So, I haven't played with them, but even commercial, off-the-shelf DJI consumer drones have the ability to return to some location if they lose link, so they're gonna have at least GPS in there. You can jam that, but they've got accelerometers, and you can't jam that. They shouldn't drop out of the sky even if you can manage to jam things.

It looks like DJI drones have frequency-hopping spread spectrum support, too. So you have to jam all frequencies that they're using, since you don't know which they're using at any given instant. For consumer hardware, it probably doesn't matter much -- nobody is jamming you, so you sit in your little assigned piece of spectrum, have a handful of channels -- but in a war, you can probably expand the frequencies you use, use a huge chunk of the spectrum, if need be.

There are also some forms of jam resistance that AFAIK are not being exploited -- beam-forming or directional antennas.

Both Russia and Ukraine have a pretty strong interest in using electronic warfare against drones, and the fact that both are still using a lot of them seems like a pretty good argument that they can't currently successfully stop them via electronic warfare.

And even if you can jam signal when it gets really close to the target, if you have a second drone watching -- which it looks like Ukraine and Russia often are, from the videos I see, maybe to do damage assessment -- you can probably stick a laser designator on those, if they haven't already, use it to guide the weaponized drone in.

[-] tal@lemmy.today 21 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Another quick off-the-cuff improvement: the drone feeds being sent today contain a lot of unnecessary information, more than is required for a human operator to guide them in. The less information that needs to make it through, and the more you can afford to cut out and use on redundancy in transmission, the more-jam-resistant the thing is. You can fall back to a unreliable-channel mode if need be for the last bit of the approach.

Here's a satellite source image. That's lossily-compressed, JPEG, at 510,254 bytes. It's pretty, but if you already know what you're looking at and are trying to just ram it, you don't need anything like that much information.

Here's the same image after I've run a Laplace edge-detection on it, denoised it, run a threshold on it (you could probably use a simple heuristic to select the threshold, but even if not, it'd be fine for the operator to manually choose a threshold), converted it to 1-bit, and then PNG-compressed it. That resulting frame is enough to keep identifying the objects in the image, enough that if you could see that frame, an operator could hold it on-target, and it's only 30,343 bytes, about 6% the size.

Then you can use the newly-free bandwidth to send forward error correction information -- some folks here may have used it in the form of PAR2, popular in the piracy scene -- so that if any N% of the data makes it through, the frame can be reassembled. Now it's a lot harder to jam.

And that's an off-the-cuff approach that took me about 2 minutes just using the tools that I have on my system (GIMP and PAR2) and zero time trying to improve on it. You figure that if you pay someone who actually specializes in the area to bang on this a bit, you can probably get something rather better.

[-] Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

Sounds like a good idea. It also sounds like you know a few things about GIMP - are you subscribed to gimp@lemmy.world?

[-] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 4 points 8 months ago

Hi there! It looks like you f*cked up a community link again. Here's a fixed version:

!gimp@lemmy.world

I am not a bot, and this action was performed manually. Have a wonderful day!

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[-] sturlabragason@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Anyone have a non paywalled or more info on the subject? All signs point towards an impending global war and I’d like to be as prepared as possible.

[-] tapdattl@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

PRECISION-GUIDED weapons first appeared in their modern form on the battlefield in Vietnam a little over 50 years ago. As armed forces have strived ever since for accuracy and destructiveness, the cost of such weapons has soared. America’s gps-guided artillery shells cost $100,000 a time. Because smart weapons are expensive, they are scarce. That is why European countries ran out of them in Libya in 2011. Israel, more eager to conserve its stockpiles than avoid collateral damage, has rained dumb bombs on Gaza. What, though, if you could combine precision and abundance?

For the first time in the history of warfare that question is being answered on the battlefields of Ukraine. Our report this week shows how first-person view (FPV) drones are mushrooming along the front lines. They are small, cheap, explosives-laden aircraft adapted from consumer models, and they are making a soldier’s life even more dangerous. These drones slip into tank turrets or dugouts. They loiter and pursue their quarry before going for the kill. They are inflicting a heavy toll on infantry and armour.

The war is also making FPV drones and their maritime cousins ubiquitous. January saw 3,000 verified FPV drone strikes. This week Volodymyr Zelensky, Ukraine’s president, created the Unmanned Systems Force, dedicated to drone warfare. In 2024 Ukraine is on track to build 1m-2m drones. Astonishingly, that will match Ukraine’s reduced consumption of shells (which is down because Republicans in Congress are shamefully denying Ukraine the supplies it needs).

The drone is not a wonder weapon—no such thing exists. It matters because it embodies big trends in war: a shift towards small, cheap and disposable weapons; the increasing use of consumer technology; and the drift towards autonomy in battle. Because of these trends, drone technology will spread rapidly from armies to militias, terrorists and criminals. And it will improve not at the budget-cycle pace of the military-industrial complex, but with the break-things urgency of consumer electronics.

Basic FPV drones are revolutionarily simple. The descendants of racing quadcopters, built from off-the-shelf components, they can cost as little as several hundred dollars. FPV drones tend to have short ranges, carry small payloads and struggle in bad weather. For those reasons they will not (yet) replace artillery. But they can still do a lot of damage. In one week last autumn Ukrainian drones helped destroy 75 Russian tanks and 101 big guns, among much else. Russia has its own fpv drones, though they tend to target dugouts, trenches and soldiers. Drones help explain why both sides find it so hard to mount offensives.

The exponential growth in the number of Russian and Ukrainian drones points to a second trend. They are inspired by and adapted from widely available consumer technology. Not only in Ukraine but also in Myanmar, where rebels have routed government forces in recent days, volunteers can use 3D printers to make key components and assemble airframes in small workshops. Unfortunately, criminal groups and terrorists are unlikely to be far behind the militias.

This reflects a broad democratisation of precision weapons. In Yemen the Houthi rebel group has used cheap Iranian guidance kits to build anti-ship missiles that are posing a deadly threat to commercial vessels in the Red Sea. Iran itself has shown how an assortment of long-range strike drones and ballistic missiles can have a geopolitical effect that far outweighs their cost. Even if the kit needed to overcome anti-drone jamming greatly raises the cost of the weapons, as some predict, they will still count as transformationally cheap.

The reason goes back to consumer electronics, which propel innovation at a blistering pace as capabilities accumulate in every product cycle. That poses problems of ethics as well as obsolescence. There will not always be time to subject novel weapons to the testing that Western countries aim for in peacetime and that is required by the Geneva Conventions.

Innovation also leads to the last trend, autonomy. Today, fpv drone use is limited by the supply of skilled pilots and by the effects of jamming, which can sever the connection between a drone and its operator. To overcome these problems, Russia and Ukraine are experimenting with autonomous navigation and target recognition. Artificial intelligence has been available in consumer drones for years and is improving rapidly.

A degree of autonomy has existed on high-end munitions for years and on cruise missiles for decades. The novelty is that cheap microchips and software will let intelligence sit inside millions of low-end munitions that are saturating the battlefield. The side that masters autonomy at scale in Ukraine first could enjoy a temporary but decisive advantage in firepower—a necessary condition for any breakthrough.

Western countries have been slow to absorb these lessons. Simple and cheap weapons will not replace big, high-end platforms, but they will complement them. The Pentagon is belatedly embarking on Replicator, an initiative to build thousands of low-cost drones and munitions able to take on China’s enormous forces. Europe is even further behind. Its ministers and generals increasingly believe that they could face another major European war by the end of the decade. If so, investment in low-end drones needs to grow urgently. Moreover, ubiquitous drones will require ubiquitous defences—not just on battlefields but also in cities at peace. Kalashnikovs in the skies

Intelligent drones will also raise questions about how armies wage war and whether humans can control the battlefield. As drones multiply, self-co-ordinating swarms will become possible. Humans will struggle to monitor and understand their engagements, let alone authorise them.

America and its allies must prepare for a world in which rapidly improving military capabilities spread more quickly and more widely. As the skies over Ukraine fill with expendable weapons that marry precision and firepower, they serve as a warning. Mass-produced hunter-killer aircraft are already reshaping the balance between humans and technology in war. ■

[-] tal@lemmy.today 6 points 8 months ago

All signs point towards an impending global war

Like what?

[-] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago

You mean Ukraine was just a proving ground for drone warfare? Shocking.

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[-] archomrade@midwest.social 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I have accidentally seen far too many videos from !ukraine@sopuli.xyz to know that these things are fucking brutal.

Knowing full well that on a metric of pure numbers, these don't compare to other weapons of war, but there's something about the personal nature of these fuckers that are just so fucking soul-destroying.

Those videos are definitely NSFL (and are usually marked as such, in fairness), but most of them have zoomed-in, full-screen footage of the carnage they leave behind. They are mostly individual or 2-3 individuals hiding/cowering alone in a trench, blown to literal pieces and left dying, completely unaware that somewhere on the other end of that drone is an operator watching their final excruciating moments of life.

It is one thing to be operating a long-range artillery weapon, or a drone flying at several thousand feet firing long-range missiles, or being in a close-combat life-or-death situation, but it's a completely different experience watching a shell drop on a defenseless, terrified and cowering human (likely coerced into war or forcibly compelled to the front-line) as if you're 10 fucking feet above them, while yourself are completely out of immediate harm.

Fuck war, but especially fuck these drones in particular.

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[-] KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago
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this post was submitted on 09 Mar 2024
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