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[-] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 89 points 8 months ago

My opinion is threefold:

  1. It is always ethical to not starve to death. (Caveat: assuming you are not directly harming someone else) If the only job available to you is making supplies for the military, don't beat yourself up. We live in a capitalist hellscape, you need to pay rent, you need to buy food, you need health insurance, you need to be able to have vacations and save for retirement and do fun things from time to time. If you can do anything to mitigate that harm--participate in demonstrations, donate to aid organizations, etc--do that; but if you're not in a situation to be able to do those things, you're not being unethical. You're just doing what you can.

  2. It is always ethical to do less harm. If your company makes support equipment for military applications--desk chairs, for example, or toilet paper--your job is more ethical than the job making, you know, bombs or bullets or napalm or whatever. A job making things that are not inherently harmful but can be used in the course of causing harm-- well, let's be honest, that's every job.

  3. A job in military supply is as ethical as the company you work for and the military they sell to. If your company is selling smart bombs to Russia's military, try to get out. But if your company is selling to a military that uses the products of your labor to mount a defense against an invading force, what you're doing might even be helping to reduce death.

But overall, "ethicalness" is not a binary, and it's not the same in every situation.

[-] Primarily0617@kbin.social 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

you need to be able to have vacations and save for retirement and do fun things from time to time

ahem actually people only need to exist and survive until they work themselves to death getting tangled in the gears of my spinning jennys

[-] greencactus@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Very good criterias! I think OP posted a great question, and your philosophy seems to be a very interesting merge of a virtue-based approach (that A/B is always good/bad) and an utilitarian one. I like it at a lot :)

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[-] infinitevalence@discuss.online 44 points 8 months ago

If the choice is starve or work for this company, then yes its ethical.

If your skills and experience can transfer to other companies and jobs, then no its not ethical IMO.

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[-] Atin@lemmy.world 30 points 8 months ago

Sure. Every country has a right to defend itself. Most of the time it isn't the tool that isn't moral but how it is put to use.

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[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 24 points 8 months ago

I don't think it is inherently unethical to work for a defense supplier, but it obviously depends on the country it is supplying. We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry. China and Russia both have publicly declared their intention to conquer other countries. Just ask Ukraine or Taiwan. Or Europe. Europe can't properly support Ukraine because its defense industry is so fragmented, politicized and atrophied.

[-] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry. China and Russia both have publicly declared their intention to conquer other countries. Just ask Ukraine or Taiwan.

But just don't ask Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Lybia, Panama, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen... am I right?

[-] lurch@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago

No, do ask them. Go ahead. Some will try to outright murder you for unrelated reasons. Some do not regard the US as a threat any more and the rest will turn out to be goddam assholes you'd wish to be bombed again.

[-] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Ah yes, America killing literally tens of million: righteous! China killing literally no one, absolute scum of the earth!

Never takes much for the shoe to drop with you people.

[-] pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 14 points 8 months ago

Huh? China has been killing tons of people in their concentration camps.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

When did America kill tens of millions? China certainly did kill tens of millions under Mao. Did you make a mistake and reverse the order?

[-] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago

You can't possibly be serious. You've got to be a troll.

Vietnam: 3~4,000,000 (not account for the the devastatinf effects of agent orange) Cambodia: 500,000 (not counting US involvement in continuing Khmer Rouge's massacres) Laos: 50,000 (not accounting for the still ongoing issue of unexploded ordinances) Korea: 2~4,000,000 Iraq desert storm: 1,000,000+ Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria: 400,00 direct violent deaths and 3~4,000,000 indirect deaths.

Shall I continue?

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[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago

Korea seems like a really bad example for you, since the South relies on the US to prevent invasion.

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[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

We in the West certainly need a strong defense industry.

But our defense industry sells arms to more or less anyone willing to pay. Most types of arms have basically become commodities, and the net effect of anyone producing more is that arms become cheaper and more accessible worldwide.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

I'm no expert on arms control, but I'm pretty sure the industry in the West can only sell to approved countries. But, yes, I take your point that there is always some form of arms race happening in the world and keeping the arms industry going means having to sell more arms, which will be used to kill people at some point. Unfortunately, we still need a defense industry.

[-] OhmsLawn@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Good point.

I'd think that the work these folks in Ukraine are doing would be an example of ethical (and, my God, it must be fulfilling) defense work.

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[-] TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub 22 points 8 months ago

I feel like this really depends on your options. Ethics are less crucial when your options are lesser as well.

If you're choosing between equally paying jobs in military contracting vs saving lives? Pretty easy choice to me. If you're choosing between doing manual labor for a military supplier vs your family being on the street? Also a pretty easy choice.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago

I work for an aerospace and defense contractor. The vast majority of my activities over the years has been for non-military space flight, but not all of it, I've also worked on torpedos, missile defense, and other military systems.

When I started working for the company, it was on the space shuttle project, so the military part didn't even occur to me (though the shuttle did place some military payloads). When I was first asked to support the military side, I found myself doing some soul searching, and I decided the main question I had to ask myself was, "Should the United States have weapons or a military?" I pretty quickly decided the answer was yes.

Does that mean I agree with every military action the government has taken? No, far from it. But there have also been many I do agree with, and I for sure believe the country needs a strong military.

So yes, I believe it's ethical.

[-] mriormro@lemmy.world 20 points 8 months ago
[-] WormFood@lemmy.world 20 points 8 months ago

i mean, i probably wouldn't resent you for mopping the floors at BAE. but if you actually design or build the missiles, yes, that is unethical

a lot of people are using the example of ukraine to say 'sometimes the missiles are for the greater good', and while i would agree with that specific example, you don't have control over where your missiles go. russian tank, yemeni refugee, etc

i also think saying 'the parts will be made anyway' is kind of a dodge, the question isn't whether the parts will be made, it's whether you will make them

[-] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 18 points 8 months ago
[-] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 17 points 8 months ago

As a rule of thumb... no.

[-] gitgud@lemmy.ml 14 points 8 months ago

Definitely not if you have the opportunity to work somewhere else.

[-] vampire@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago

I don't really think you need to worry about inanimate objects seeing as they haven't been made for good or evil specifically. On the other hand, if you write software that decides who lives or dies, you have a gigantic responsibility and the blood of any accident is on your hands

[-] PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com 13 points 8 months ago

No. I left the military because I couldn't morally justify staying in.

[-] GrymEdm@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

It's a complex question, but I think the short answer is it depends on if your country has safeguards in place to control where that manufactured equipment goes. A few months ago I watched a video interview of a US State Department official who publicly resigned because he felt those safeguards (specifically laws of war and laws of proportionality) had been bypassed during recent arms transfer to Israel. I could see someone quitting their military manufacturing or engineering jobs for the same reasons. Whether or not you agree with how your nation's arms are being used is a matter of personal ethics and involves things like political accountability.

I know I want my country to have self-defense capabilities, and that means having a well-supplied military. Thus I support at least some arms manufacturing. I very much dislike the idea of it being entangled with major economic factors because I don't want war to make economic sense - i.e. "drive the industry". My guess is a lot of people worldwide would like to see less arms-for-profit trading because it makes military industrialists rich at the expense of weapons spreading around the world and often causing harm to innocent people.

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[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 12 points 8 months ago

nope, not if you care about human beings. the united states especially is under no threat requiring a near trillion dollar a year 'defense'

the military-industrial complex is a jobs-welfare program, but none of them will admit they are welfare recipients.

many people can overlook their particular part as 'well, my role isnt making a bullet that will go through a human, so what i do for this company is ok'

im not that delusional.

[-] deadbeef79000@lemmy.nz 6 points 8 months ago

many people can overlook their particular part

People are amazingly good at this.

"I just make the munitions, I don't use them".

"I just load the munitions, I don't actually fire the weapon".

"I just fire the weapon, I didn't put my target into the warzone".

"If I wasn't, someone else would anyway".

[-] BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Probably fine if you are the janitor. If you are the engineer in charge of maximising "effectiveness" of weaponry well....

[-] Netrunner@programming.dev 12 points 8 months ago
[-] profdc9@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

Some military devices help prevent conflict and minimize its harm. A lot of modern warfare is increasing situational awareness. For example, radar, night vision, surveillance, reconnaissance, electronic warfare, tactical communications, and signals intelligence. Of course, these technologies can be used in a way that harms as well. But the alternative is a blind slugfest that probably harms a lot more civilians and friendly fire.

[-] abracaDavid@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

Ah yes. Bigger, better, more deadly weapons will definitely help reduce deaths.

It's all just lining the pockets of weapons manufacturers.

[-] Mastema@infosec.pub 11 points 8 months ago

I think this question boils down to this: Do your actions have a net positive or a net negative affect on the world? Does working at this company in some way offset the harm that the company is doing downstream? In this case I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable way in which this might be the case. Paying you and your family to have stuff doesn't offset causing actual death and physical harm.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I mean ... not saying I necessarily agree, but isn't the logical counter argument being defense and deterrence?

I use to be much much more ideologically against arms production, but honestly, seeing what's happening in Ukraine has given me some pause and caused me to reflect a lot. When a tyrant like Putin can amass a huge amount of weaponry and just decide to invade and impose a totalitarian dictatorship on a neighbouring country, and the only thing that has stopped him is a mass amount of better weaponry, it muddies the moral waters a bit.

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[-] june@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

I don’t think it’s ethical. But if it’s take that job or lose my house? I’ll take the job until I can find something better.

[-] BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

No. But people have different ideas of what's ethical and what's not.

If you ask in a pro military or Conservative space you'll probably be told "yes".

You'll have to decide for yourself whether you could live with working for such a company. Everyone needs to eat and if that's your best choice for work then it may not be such an easy choice.

[-] scoobford@lemmy.zip 10 points 8 months ago

I don't think so, mostly because those companies are some of the worst manipulators of our democracy.

In terms of actually helping to manufacture weapons, there are necessary and ethical uses for those weapons, and you as an individual cannot choose where they go. Not an issue IMO.

[-] Carol2852@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 8 months ago

I started in defense, but I would now after 15+ years not do any work in defense or gambling or trading. It was a good experience for me though, taught me a lot, but I wouldn't do it again now.

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[-] InfiniWheel@lemmy.one 9 points 8 months ago

- The Good Place

[-] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The problem I have with working for military contractors is you never know wtf the government is going to do with them. When Trump was elected dude wanted to nuke a hurricane. Weapons in the wrong hands is very dangerous and is the biggest concern I have. Which is also kind of why I want a meritocracy system to stop stupid shit from happening.

Anyways, I diverge. If you had no other choice than to work for a company that kills people then maybe? Lots of those guys also do space exploration or something as well so I'm sure you could find something without making weapons.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

If it's a choice then no I don't think it's ethical. If it's the only job you can get and you absolutely need it to survive or you're facing threat of war from another country that's a harder issue.

But assuming you aren't forced to do it and it's entirely your choice in time of peace: choosing to make weapons of war isn't very ethical IMO. That's a pretty huge assumption, though. Real life is rarely so simple.

[-] dumpsterlid@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Absolutely not.

Yes Ukraine is an example of a good use for a defense industry but US history is littered with tragedies, massacres and massive amounts of suffering from all the other bad things having a defense industry does.

[-] BothsidesistFraud@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Yes. Defense is important. Pacifism is unworkable in today's geopolitical sphere. Weapons create peace.

[-] underscore_@sopuli.xyz 7 points 8 months ago

It of course depends on the context and choice of ethics framework. If the decision is personal I like to use the shorthand: If you have the privilege to choose, then choose to build the type of future you want to live in.

[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 8 months ago

Of course not

[-] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Obviously not, as you might have heard, those things are used to kill people.

[-] Rottcodd@kbin.social 6 points 8 months ago

No - it's not ethical.

Very little evil is actually a direct result of evil people doing evil things. The vast majority of it comes to be through ordinary people doing banal things - things that, like building weapons, are questionable at best, but that they excuse because it's "out of my control."

The thing is that it's not out of their control. Yes - if one individual makes the decision to not take part, that's not going to have much of an effect, but if every person who feels the same way makes that same choice, that absolutely WILL have an effect.

And there's only one way to make it so that every person who feels the same way makes that choice, and that's for each one of them, individually, to look past that "it's out of my control" bullshit excuse and go ahead and do it.

Everything on any significant scale is out of individual control. Individuals just possess a very limited amount of control over affairs on a national, much less global, scale. But that's really entirely beside the point. The point is how you choose to exercise the small amount of control you have. Will you use it for good, or for evil?

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this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2024
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