Open Letter to Tim Cook: Sabotaging Web Apps Is Indefensible : firefox

[-] shrugal@lemm.ee 170 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The company said cutting off PWAs was part of an effort to comply with the Digital Markets Act, arguing browsers other than its own Safari software would expose users to security and privacy risks that were not permitted under the law.

They are so full of shit, it's unbelievable! Are they really claiming that their own browser is THE ONLY legal browser there is?!

[-] P1r4nha@feddit.de 88 points 8 months ago

It's blatant anti-competitive behavior and anybody who cares about antitrust should be outraged about this and similar efforts. Getting legal protection for such decisions is nothing but regulatory capture.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago

Don't they already force every browser on their app store to use the safari engine because "security"?

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[-] fisco@lemmy.ml 99 points 8 months ago

Move away from apple products & taste the freedom..

[-] something_random_tho@lemmy.world 64 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The problem is the only alternative (on phones) is handing over all my data to Google, the world’s largest ad company. I’m not sure that’s better…

Desktop is easy. Install Linux. But on phones, there’s 2 bad realistic choices.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 32 points 8 months ago

You don't have to install Gapps though.

[-] toastal@lemmy.ml 49 points 8 months ago

If you skip GApps & install a custom ROM, chances are banking & government apps won’t work… & you see some places removing their websites forcing users into the app duopoly… which is why web apps matter.

[-] goatmeal@midwest.social 16 points 8 months ago

FWIW I've got grapheneOS without google play services on a financial profile, and all of my financial apps work including: -Two credit card apps -Bank app -Three investing apps -Two direct transfer apps

One of the credit cards apps (amex) does give a "warning" on each page that it needs play services to function but if I click Ok it actually still just works.

[-] toastal@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago

You are also locked to a Pixel device so GG if you want features Pixels do not offer

[-] Rose@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

Worth trying first. In my experience, almost every app works without the Google store. You can also block the internet access for any Google service or app via its settings.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 9 points 8 months ago

And second step could be trying microG, which also usually works.

[-] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 8 months ago

The best middle ground is probably GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google Play Services. At that point, most things "just work" and you can at least mitigate Google's spyware.

[-] toastal@lemmy.ml 18 points 8 months ago

Middle ground option has a weirdo author & is limited to Google’s Pixel line only (which eliminates one of the best parts about Android vs. iOS: device variety so you can find something specific to your needs)

[-] TotalSonic@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yeah, which is why I use de-googled "vanilla" Bliss ROM 17.2 (Android 14 with latest security patch) on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro instead of going the Graphene or Calyx + Pixel route. This way I have the hardware features I wanted (headphone jack, micro SD card slot, 5000mAh battery, 108mp camera, stereo speakers, 120mHz refresh rate) all for cheaper than a Pixel, and the Bliss ROM community is pretty friendly and dedicated in my interactions with it.

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[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 9 points 8 months ago

And this is why I'm getting a Pixel for my next phone, it's the only phone line GrapheneOS works on, and it has a nice long support cycle.

I wish it was available on more phones though. I know there are other projects, but they don't seem as well run as GrapheneOS.

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[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 5 points 8 months ago

Depends on the phone you get. You have to "do your own research" and figure beforehand which phones even allow you to install a custom ROM or different OS, like LineageOS, and evaluate if the steps required to do so (and risk of bricking) are worth the trouble. The worst part is that this shit is difficult on purpose, much like how, by default, Android won't let you uninstall bloatware, only "disable" it.

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[-] LeroyJenkins@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone and blindly giving Apple their data. let's be real for a sec and not pretend most Apple users give a flying fuck that Google tracks them. if a user truly cared about privacy, they would eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter Apple or Google, privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps. so owning an iPhone isn't adequate for privacy either. both googled Android and iOS give your data back to their respective companies. neither are good for your privacy. one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies, Apple fan boys who have put their their whole lives into the apple ecosystem will realize they put all their eggs in one basket.

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[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 65 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Firefox doesn't even support pwa, this is a weird community to post this

[-] anivia@lemmy.ml 82 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Firefox for Android supports PWAs, only Desktop Firefox dropped the support

[-] nitefox@sh.itjust.works 16 points 8 months ago

Which honestly makes sense, what’s the point of PWA on desktop?

[-] daq@lemmy.sdf.org 28 points 8 months ago

Web apps are awesome on desktop especially when common clients like Skype and Slack are absolute fucking shit with zero dev time spent on them because Electron is a lazy alternative despite being shit software that needs to fucking die.

Thankfully --no-remote parameter still sort of works to make Firefox semi usable as a web app.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago

because Electron is a lazy alternative despite being shit software that needs to fucking die

This needs to be said more often

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[-] isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 23 points 8 months ago

Installing web apps that should really be their own apps and not confined to a tab in your browser. Especially on Linux for things like Notion that you'll need often and accessible from the dash or task bar.

[-] olafurp@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago

I actually would love to have it since I'm on Linux. My options are sometimes nothing, 3rd party packaged version, broken or slow startup time. (Most of the time it's just fine though)

Having everything as cached Web pages with notifications, working camera, mic and screen sharing is very good.

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[-] ripcord@lemmy.world 19 points 8 months ago

Mostly the same as on phones.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 10 points 8 months ago

Basically the same point as Electron/Tauri, make a web app feel like a native app by getting rid of the typical browser UI to focus on the content. I'm pretty sure they usually integrate with OS features, like launchers, so you don't need to bookmark it in your browser, you just open like any other app.

[-] guts@lemmy.ml 6 points 8 months ago

Developers can focus on PWA for phones and desktop.

[-] phillaholic@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago

What’s the point of it on phones?

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Single app for all platforms, without the baggage and issues of the cross-native solutions.

[-] ferralcat@monyet.cc 4 points 8 months ago

They're actually secure too. It's always interesting to me how iphone owners are so concerned about security and privacy, right up until Apple tells them not to.

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[-] stoicferret@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

Moving the app outside the confinement of official distribution channel/getting rid of 20/30% of store tax?

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[-] shrugal@lemm.ee 10 points 8 months ago

And there is FirefoxPWA, an extension to add pretty solid PWA support on desktop.

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[-] jukey@feddit.de 46 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I am using https://lichess.org/ and prefer it over the native iOS App for this free chess website. It is in fact a smoothly running PWA and even supports notifications (e.g. to remind one to move in correspondence games).

Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.

F* you, Apple!

[-] webjukebox@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.

Voyager is the best PWA I've ever seen.

[-] angrymouse@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

This is so frustrating because this is a big hit to browsers like firefox because Apple has such a large userbase, but this same userbase does not give a shit, and this is because they bought an apple in the first place. Frustrating

[-] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

Thank you Tim Apple

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 14 points 8 months ago

Someone fill me in:

Can they really force this once EU opens the gates to the third-party app stores?

[-] Maestro@kbin.social 46 points 8 months ago

They will try. This is about OS-level APIs. In order for a browser to to install and run PWAs, it needs certain OS APIs for e.g. home screen installation, storage and notifications. iOS currently has these APIs but Safari severely limits what you can do with it. Now the DMA will force Apple to accept other browsers, which have no such limitations. So, Apple now wants to remove these APIs altogether and kill PWA support outright, before that portion of the DMA takes effect.

There probably will be a lawsuit and Apple will probably lose, but it will take years to resolve that. And in the mean time PWAs remain dead and the only way on the iOS home screen in paying the 30% app store cut.

[-] muhyb@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago

I see. So it doesn't look good for now. Thanks for the insight!

[-] shrugal@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago

Isn't it the other way around? Afaik the EU commission investigates them, makes a decision, and sets a due date for Apple to comply or pay a potentially hefty fine. It would be Apple who'd have to sue against that, and they'd have to pay the fine until a court confirms or nullifies it.

[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago

The fine will have to be pretty hefty to cancel out the risk to Apple of PWAs taking off.

A free and open app platform sitting above the OS is surely a terrible threat to both Google and Apple.

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[+] Yearly1845@reddthat.com 8 points 8 months ago

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[-] t0fr@lemmy.ca 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Firefox on Desktop doesn't support PWAs

Apparently Firefox on Android does

[-] alyth@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

A PWA installed with Firefox on Android does not appear in the app launcher, but only on the home screen. I don't know whether this is the fault of Firefox or Android but it's a major flaw.

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[-] amzd@kbin.social 5 points 8 months ago

They are not sabotaging "web apps" (aka websites), you just need to save the website to the homescreen if you want to use a web app, (this is both quicker and takes up less storage on your device so it is better for the end-user).

They are removing these "apps" from the appstore because they are not native apps.

[-] Pickle_Jr@lemmy.dbzer0.com 42 points 8 months ago

PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) are their own categories of websites and they do indeed have the ability to behave like an actual app. They are much more than just a shortcut, which apple is reducing them to.

On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn't wrapping the page, I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do, I can support offline mode, I can store data locally, and I can manage my PWAs permissions as well as uninstall my app at an OS level. My entire family uses my PWA, and they see it as an app.

Are there some things native apps can do that PWAs can't? Absolutely, but that is not the point. PWAs are an open and clearly defined technology to the web. Windows supports them as well.

Apple is refusing to accept that though. They are removing notifications, badges, etc, and reducing them to what you have described, just a shortcut to a Safari window. They are citing security concerns even though other operating systems are able to implement security around them just fine.

The real issue is Apple wants more control over how you use your device and is acting against the consumer.

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