40

Sad to see capitalist propaganda leaking in here. But remember the fundamentals my fellow workers.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Mr_Fish@lemmy.world 12 points 10 months ago

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "surplus value == theft" argument. At least not in every case.

The reason is that simply by being in the context of your employment, you can work more efficiently and produce more value than you could on your own. If your wage is between your 'potential solo value' and your 'current value', then the profit comes from the fact that you're working in the context that your employer has provided.

This isn't to say I'm against workers getting the full profit, but it's not as bad as some people say it is.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago

That falls apart a bit when you consider that Capital, ie the tools and materials used to create Value by labor, is itself a combination of labor and natural resources. The context you speak of was not created by a Capitalist owning said tools, the act of arranging and managing labor is of course itself also labor, but that labor is not derived from Ownership, nor does said ownership provide labor nor value. It's separate.

[-] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 4 points 10 months ago

Your employer provides nothing that isn't earned by the value of the labor of its employees

[-] TigrisMorte@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

False, they front the non-labor costs.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 10 months ago

The non-labor costs are still labor. A hammer is labor, wood, and metal, and imparts a portion of its embodied value onto that which is assists in creating.

Ownership does not provide value. Management does, it creates Value via labor, but ownership is not required for management, nor does management justify ownership.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (13 replies)
[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

produce more value than you could on your own

Sooo... more value that can be stolen by capitalists?

the context that your ~~employer~~ fellow people doing all the actual work has provided.

FTFY.

Your argument against "“surplus value = theft” is about as shit as it gets.

but it’s not as bad as some people say it is.

The only reason you can pretend that certain aspects of capitalism is "not as bad as some people say it is" is because of the fact that organized labor have spilt a lot of their own blood fighting to get it to the point of being "not as bad as some people say it is."

[-] Marxist_Bear@midwest.social 11 points 10 months ago

Profit, rent, and private property are all forms of theft.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] Cylusthevirus@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

Not everyone who wants better rights for workers is a Marxist; the horror.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Most people want better rights for Workers, yes, Marxism just provides a sound base for analyzing why Worker's rights aren't good in the first place. It's a helpful lense of analysis.

You don't need to be a Marxist to want better rights for Workers, not at all, but Marxism definitely helps. That's why leftists are almost exclusively Marxists in some fashion, even Anarchists acknowledge Marxian analysis of Capitalism.

[-] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

It's crazy how much Marx u have in any people-related fields of study like sociology, economics n so on. Dude was hella smart!

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

Yep, for sure! You don't even have to think he was 100% correct about literally everything to gain value from Materialist analysis and viewing conditions through a Marxian lense.

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 3 points 10 months ago

I'm all in on the labor theory of value. It's gonna be a long haul to displace all the people who believe value is created by magic in the market, though.

[-] BaldProphet@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

What about keeping some revenue to reinvest in the business? For example, say I'm a business owner and I save some of my profits to open a second location someday. Does that count as stealing?

[-] Marxist_Bear@midwest.social 5 points 10 months ago

Yes, because for you to get those profits, you had to not pay your workers the full value of their labor power.

[-] TigrisMorte@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

False. The full value of their labor plus the costs not tied directly to that labor is called Cost of Goods sold. The amount over that which the customer is charged is called Profit.

[-] mathemachristian@lemm.ee 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

You're using the liberal definition of labor value, which is the price the worker charges the capitalist for selling them their labor-power.

Marxist_Bear is using the marxist definition of labor value which is the value of a commodity measured in labor-time required to produce it.

[-] TigrisMorte@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

Yeah, the the fantasy definition is not of any relevance. Only the real world actual observable outcome definition is of any importance. Much like they ignore the resources and building to perform said work in their "theft" argument, they ignore the actual definitions of most of the terms they flip on about.

load more comments (3 replies)
[-] mathemachristian@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

Yes. Because you get to have a second location and your worker who created the value with which you opened it doesn't.

load more comments (18 replies)
[-] stoy@lemmy.zip 2 points 10 months ago

What?

So if I work and make a profit, that money is stolen from the value of my labour?

[-] mathemachristian@lemm.ee 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

No, its just that you get to keep all of the profit.

When you work for a capitalist they pay you a portion of the profit your labor generated to cover your labor cost (food, shelter etc.) and keep the rest for themself.

It might be better understood in Marxist terms: you have the cost of your input materials and the cost of the labor-power needed to transform them. Subtract them from the output value of the labor and you get the surplus-value. The capitalist will keep the surplus-value the laborer created for themself and the laborer gets enough to cover the cost of maintaining their labor-power.

[-] stoy@lemmy.zip 2 points 10 months ago

I get what ypu are saying, but I have a different oppinion on the subject, and it appears that I have found my way to the wrong community, so I won't go into details here.

I wish you all the best!

[-] AbsolutePhillyDog@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

That’s not how all of us here feel. Sorry to see you go.

[-] mathemachristian@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

To you as well. If you ever wonder what those Marxist are talking about here is a good read on it imo

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Wage_labour_and_capital

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago

What difference in opinion do you have? Self-employed laborers get to keep all of their created Value, whereas Capitalists take value created by others.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024
40 points (100.0% liked)

Antiwork

3627 readers
1 users here now

A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.

The new place for c/antiwork@lemmy.fmhy.ml

This server is no longer working, and we had to move.

Active stats from all instances

Subscribers: 2.1k

Date Created: June 21, 2023

Library copied from reddit:
The Anti-Work Library 📚
Essential Reads

Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.

c/Antiwork Rules

Tap or click to expand

1. Server Main Rules

The main rules of the server will be enforced stringently. https://lemmy.world/

2. No spam or reposts + limit off topic comments

Spamming posts will be removed. Reposts will be removed with the exception of a repost becoming the main hub for discussion on that topic.

Off topic comments that do not pertain to the post at hand may be removed if it is deemed they contribute nothing and/or foster hostility at users. This mostly applies to political and religious debate, but can be applied to other things at the mod’s discretion.

3. Post must have Antiwork/ Work Reform explicitly involved

Post must have Antiwork/Work Reform explicitly involved in some capacity. This can be talking about antiwork, work reform, laws, and ext.

4. Educate don’t attack

No mocking, demeaning, flamebaiting, purposeful antagonizing, trolling, hateful language, false accusation or allegation, or backseat moderating is allowed. Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks against another user or insult other people, examples of violations would be going after the person rather than the stance they take.

If we feel the comment is uncalled for we will remove it. Stay civil and there won’t be problems.

5. No Advertising

Under no circumstance are you allowed to promote or advertise any product or service

6. No factually misleading informationContent that makes claims or implications that can be proven false or misleading will be removed.

7. Headlines

If the title of the post isn’t an original title of the article then the first thing in the body of the post should be an original title written in this format “Original title: {title here}”.

8. Staff Discretion

Staff can take disciplinary action on offenses not listed in the rules when a community member's actions or general conduct creates a negative experience for another player and/or the community.

It is impossible to list every example or variation of the rules. It is also impossible to word everything perfectly. Players are expected to understand the intent of the rules and not attempt to "toe the line" or use loopholes to get around the intent of the rule.


Other Communities

c/workreform@lemmy.world


Server status for big servers http://lemmy-status.org/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS