115
“It’s really just revolutionary. I think its concept is revolutionary, and I hope it’s for workers and not for tarts and fags.”
—John Lennon
I forget just how much of a bigot and gay basher Lennon was.
Not to mention self confessed domestic abuser, and general asshole..
I heard the argument the other day telling me to separate art from the artist.
My singular response was "yeah, and I like Trapped In The Closet too, but R Kelly pissed on a 13 year old girl he later married. I can't listen to any of his music and not have that in the back of my mind. If you can stomach the song while thinking about that, the song must be pretty good or the travesty not that bad that you can push it out"
Loved Eric Clapton, read what he said about Hendrix and his own family and then the vaccine stuff in recent years resurfaced it. No more Clapton
I mean yeah, Chuck Berry used to fart on women’s faces while they were tossing his salad without consent as well, and that’s pretty fucked up. But reading the descriptions of the videos of R Kelly pissing on minors faces was just way way fucked up. Wouldn’t be able to listen to any song without thinking of all the fucked up things he’s done to other people.
Yeah there are definitely levels. Louis C.K. makes me feel weird, I think he's funny and I think what he did was wrong but not on the level of R. Kelly or actual sexual criminals. Then the R Kelly stuff happens and it makes you re-evaluate the entire Leaderboard of 'fucked up celebrity shit'.
Your judgement is suspect cuz u think ck is funny.
I always took it as more of a "I enjoy the art, don't know what's going on in the artist's life" kinda of deal. There's plenty of people who don't want to hear a thing about any artist's personal life or opinion. And it's not fair to condemn someone that's enjoying some art because they don't care to keep up with the joneses.
That's ruined the song for me
Easy to throw stones in 2023. That seems horrid now, of course, but homosexuality was literally criminalized in the UK in the 60s - the same time period where they had a gay manager. Look into the sexual tension/love affair between Epstein (Brian, not Jeffrey) and Lennon. Dude was genuinely progressive for the times (over half a fucking century ago, y’all) and to shape that as bigotry is borderline misinformation.
Rag on him for beating his wife, not this silly shit
Edit: here’s some actual context about this notorious “bigot”. https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-lennon-the-beatles-song-defend-brian-esptein-sexuality/
Rag on him for both.
"Acceptable of the time" isn't a valid excuse against bigotry. There's a differenc between thinking something is criminal but having no moral objection to it, you know, like drugs and free love and everything else their music talks about, and thinking something is criminal and that there is a moral attachment to that act.
There were people in the 60s/70s/80s that wouldn't write a workers rights song and say "keep it away from fags and girly men though", because they're not self-dillusioned assholes, John Lennon just didn't happen to be one.
I’m not saying “oh, it was the 70s, fag meant something else” (even though that’s true - 60 years have gone by!). I’m saying that taking that comment out of context and labeling the guy as a bigot is some 2023 shit. Lennon was, by his own admission, bisexual - and it’s entirely possible that he actually hooked up with Epstein (and Elton John, later on).
I’m not defending the comment, to be clear. It’s quite nasty. But using that to label him as a homophobe/bigot is an absurd reach.
He was an asshole fwiw, and the domestic/child abuse is completely inexcusable. But for fucks sake, he was probably referring to hippies with that comment.
And honestly, it is important to view things in historical context. Being supportive of an quasi-openly gay person (and letting them manage your career!) when it was criminal takes balls, and that’s not something that should be erased because of one nasty quote.
He was ragging on someone for ‘fag dancing’ in the same interview, denied having relations with Brian, and called him a fag. Deep in the closet and denial and trying to talk shit to deflect, I can see. “Acting” like a bigot and a gay-basher,..maybe.
Or maybe that slur really did carry less weight for an Englishman in 1971? Here’s the quote you referenced:
Let me ask you about something else that was in the Hunter Davies book. At one point it said you and Brian Epstein went off to Spain.
Yes. We didn’t have an affair though. Fuck knows what was said. I was pretty close to Brian. If somebody is going to manage me, I want to know them inside out. He told me he was a fag.
I hate the way Allen is attacked and Brian is made out to be an angel just because he’s dead. He wasn’t, you know, he was just a guy.
I read the entire interview. There’s nothing in there condemning being gay, or even really any commentary on sexuality. He says a slur a few times! In 1971! There’s also a huge chunk of the interview where he talks about supporting civil rights, which you’re not talking about for some reason.
Your comments makes it sound like he’s hand in hand with Reagan 10 years later, when it’s honestly less offensive than a lot of shit that’s been said this decade by politicians and Christians worldwide.
I doubt I can change your mind, since you seem pretty set on this point. But I’m curious: Elton John didn’t come out as gay until the 90s. If he was killed in 1980, would you be calling him a bigot too?
This is a cover of the song by the late Jerry Williams.
Wow, that's intense and I think a better version.
I also love the Green Day cover.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
There's an early demo version out there that's actually better than the album version. It's more raw and emotional, which works very well for the song
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/watch?v=D77dbv-xNfE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Lovely tune. I'd never heard it before either.
Great song. Powerful strategic use of dropping the f-bomb, and just an emotionally powerful song overall. It didn't dramatically change the world, but it got plenty of airplay and it made it's point.
This one and Imagine are the best lyrics he's ever written. Including everything he wrote alone and with Paul McCartney for The Beatles.
this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
115 points (100.0% liked)
Today I Learned
17804 readers
1179 users here now
What did you learn today? Share it with us!
We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.
** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**
Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.
If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.
Partnered Communities
You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.
Community Moderation
For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS