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While online surveys seem like not the best method this is interesting. I would love to see more studies like this. It's really hard to show systemic problems and people have a really hard time believing that this exists since they can find anecdotal examples to the contrary
people have a really hard time believing that this exists since they can find anecdotal examples to the contrary
"I once met someone who rolled a 12 with 2 dice. Why did those other people not choose to roll better than a 7 on average? Must be because of bad decisions."
I once met someone who rolled a 12 with 2 dice. Why did those other people not choose to roll better than a 7 on average? Must be because of bad decisions.
This same person rolled a 12 twice. Everyone else is an idiot. Just roll out good
I knew a guy whose grandparents rolled three 12s in a row, now he keeps knocking the die off the table, but is allowed to do it again and again because of the good choices of his grandparents.
Meanwhile these people are rolling d20's while the average person is lucky to have a d4 and a d6
There's a great analogy that I was introduced to a while back,
Life is like a carnival dart throw game.
Middle class kids get one throw. Most hit the board somewhere in the "doing okay" region, some miss the board completely, but a small number actually hit the bullseye. They're the rags-to-riches success stories.
Rich kids get as many throws as they want.
Poor kids? They don't get a throw, they're the ones working the booth.
Right!? Winners win. Just win dummy!
You're one of those boffin types who think you know everything, are you? But my gran said people like you are arrogant so I'll rather believe the snake oil salesmen. Checkmate leftists!
Does this mean my bootstraps aren’t enough?
@Aesculapius It's funny, tragic, and sad that modern Republicans started using that phrase unironically. It actually means the opposite of what they think it does, it's clearly impossible to do:
Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act.
An 1834 publication ridiculed a claim to have built a perpetual-motion machine by saying that the inventor might next heave himself over a river “by the straps of his boots.” An 1840 citation scoffs that something is “as gross an absurdity as he who attempts to raise himself over a fence by the straps of his boots.” source
It's impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.
That's certainly a take of the author... "Yea, it's impossible. But... so?"
You're misunderstanding, the NYT is anti-Republican. The author means "yet Republicans can still somehow use this impossible claim to drive out good policy". Notice how it says good policy, not they goodly drive out policy.
todayilearned material here.
My favorite part about this saying is that it originated as silly way to describe an impossible task (getting oneself out of quicksand by pulling on your own hair). Braindead capitalists completely missed the point and adopted it as an actual rallying cry in one of the greatest instance of irony that I can think of.
I have a friend that believes she is entitled to nice things, even though her income cannot accommodate it. She gets a new car every other year, wears name brand clothing, and 'upgraded' to a house that costs $120k more than her previous home. We earn similar income, I drive used cars, wear clothes from Target, am content with my 3 BR home, and have steadily invested in mutual funds. I will be able to retire at 60, she will work until the day she dies.. We've made different decisions, there will be different outcomes.
I get what you’re saying, but this is what they call anecdotal evidence. Plus, the article doesn’t claim that a person’s choices can not affect their financial outcome, it says that [edit: “biased decision-making”] alone do not account for the amount of income inequality prominent in the countries studied.
What you’re saying may be true, but if a terrible fate befell one of you, you would both have the assets to weather it. However, someone in the lower income bracket would not, no matter what choices they made, for reasons many times beyond their control.
Jerome and Tina attend ACME High School. Jerome spends his evenings studying for tests and completing homework assignments. Upon graduation, Jerome enrolls in college and eventually gets a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Shortly after leaving college, Jerome obtains employment as an engineer and is prudent with his financial decisions, positioning himself to enjoy a comfortable life.
Tina spends her evenings smoking pot and hanging out downtown with her friends. She thinks being successful in school is for suckers, and chooses to live in the moment. Thanks to today's lax education standards, she 'graduates' with effectively no marketable skills. She takes multiple low skill/low wage jobs throughout her life, all the while bemoaning the unfairness of it all.
Tina and Jerome made different decisions, there are different outcomes.
Anecdotal Evidence can certainly have value. Suppose I am sitting in a room with an empty box on the floor, and I notice a snake crawled into it. Then you enter the room and reach down to examine the contents of the box. I caution you that you may get bitten if you proceed....now, there hasn't been a scientific study completed on the box contents....so will you ignore my warning? I mean, it's anecdotal, after all..
So, should I caution myself when looking in all boxes because you once saw a snake crawl into one this one time? What your saying with this snake example is not anecdotal evidence, it is an eye witness account and what your stating is a fact as far as you know it. Once you apply it to a broader idea or rule, your using a fallacy to to prove your point and, while it may seem and feel compelling (as many fallacies do), it is not a valid argument.
It’s like scooping the ocean into a cup and showing everyone that the ocean doesn’t have trash because your limited observation shows this is true.
Jerome and Tina attend ACME High School. Jerome spends his evenings studying for tests and completing homework assignments. A year before graduating, Jerome's parents die in an accident leaving Jerome to look after his 4 younger siblings with no income or no family. Shortly after the crash, Jerome has to stop going to college to be able to work in 3 different jobs to look after his siblings, Jerome can't obtain employment as an engineer because he was not able to finish college nor do any internship without financial support and since all the entry level jobs require at least 3 years of experience, his temporary jobs become permanent and he never finds time to finish his college. and he can't be prudent with his financial decisions since he never makes enough money to save or invest.
Tina spends her evenings smoking pot and hanging out downtown with her friends. She thinks being successful in school is for suckers, and chooses to live in the moment. Thanks to today's lax education standards, she 'graduates' with effectively no marketable skills. One day, Tina and her friends make a video for fun and become internet sensations. Tina continues to make videos for fun because she also thinks working is for suckers. Suddenly, marijuana becomes completely legal across all of United States for both recreation and medical use which causes a huge marijuana boom. One of the industry leaders in cannabis production makes a deal with Tina to become her sponsors, positioning Tina to enjoy a comfortable life.
Tina and Jerome made different decisions, there are different outcomes.
I can't even..so stupid.
But if at birth Tina has a trust fund of say $900,000 that is invested in index funds and blue chip stock, Jerome is likely to have significantly less money than Tina at retirement even though he worked hard and she just partied.
Capital outpaces labour, mathematically speaking.
Where did that come from? This discussion is about decisions. And statistically, how many people inherit huge trust funds vs people simply having the opportunity to make good decisions? It's miniscule.
I think this discussion is about the contributing factors in economic equality. "Decisions" is just one of the possible contributing factors.
I was trying to use an obvious (no maths needed) example to make the point that access to capital is another, more powerful contributing factor.
The trust fund was a much easier way to make the point than if I give you a spreadsheet about people whose parents pay for their college versus those with student loans, or people whose parents own homes they can live in versus those who don't, people with access to college and people without etc etc etc.
There's not all that much churn between those with access to capital and those without.
I think your point has some merit, but this thread is absolutely about choices (check the title). Feel free to start a new thread and posit your thoughts there.
The thread title is 'Economic inequality cannot be explained by bad choices, study finds.'
I was talking about economic inequality as per the thread title. If you don't want to talk about it that's fine, don't - but there's no need to tell me not to talk in here. We're all friends.
You were not talking about economic inequality and choices (per the actual thread title), you introduced a random inheritance and chased a tangent as if they are the same thing. I didn't tell you not to talk in here, but the purpose of a discussion is to discuss the actual topic, not hijack it with unrelated information.
I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding your perspective, so I'm just going to leave you alone. Have a nice day.
Wait, did you write this non sequiter in defense of rebul's garbage take?
Christ no.
I was trying to explain the main point in Thomas Picketty's Capital in the 21st Century in a way they might understand, but I soon saw that I had vastly underestimated how hard that is to do.
That's my bad, next time I'll either take the time to spell it out a lot more clearly, or just walk on by.
Not sure how you came to the conclusion I'm defending their argument, when I can see you just downvoted me for telling them I don't understand them?
You should have made better decisions so that you would be living in a mansion and already be retired. You made such poor decisions. Now don't go saying you "just did the best that you could do with what you have" malarky.
Pfft. Should have chosen to be born to rich parents.
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this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2023
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