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submitted 10 months ago by rockSlayer@lemmy.world to c/leftism@lemmy.world

We reject antisemitism in all its forms, including when it masquerades as criticism of Zionism or Israel’s policies. We also recognise that, as journalist Peter Beinart wrote in 2019, “Anti-Zionism is not inherently antisemitic—and claiming it is uses Jewish suffering to erase Palestinian experience.”

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[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 63 points 10 months ago

The fact that this even requires saying is a testament to how thoroughly drenched the (so-called) "west" is in regurgitated pro-Israeli propaganda.

[-] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 30 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Israel itself is drenched in a culture of racist anti-Palestinian tropes, and denial of the ethnic cleansing called the Nakba.

The crimes of the Third Reich are invoked disingenuously to construct a counterfactual demonization of the Palestinian people.

Meanwhile, Jews in the West are often antagonized in their communities and families if they challenge the prevailing dogma.

There is a soft but tragic irony, that many liberal Jews feel free to approach their religious heritage critically and skeptically, but any who question political doctrine are greeted as heretics.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 46 points 10 months ago

The Jews are the only people for whom criticizing the government of the country they're typically associated with is interpreted as racism. If I say the Chinese government is committing crimes against humanity no one thinks I'm a racist. If I say Donald Trump is a moron, no one thinks I hate all Americans. If I say the Israeli government shouldn't be responding to Hamas' attack the way they are? Oh man, now I'm an antisemite and hate all Jews!

The fuck is wrong with this world?

[-] SoleInvictus@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago

It's public relations spin. If you haven't noticed, the Israeli government isn't exactly what one would call ethical. They use every trick in the book to insulate themselves against criticism, up to and including crying antisemitism.

It's disgusting, really. After WWII, many people did what they could to distance themselves from even the barest hint of antisemitism, and with good reason: the actions of the Nazis were reprehensible. Israel has taken that cultural awareness, unwillingly purchased with the blood of their ancestors, and used it to commit genocide of their own.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 4 points 10 months ago

Yep, guilt over WW2 from Western governments (no country went to war to save the Jews, it was a byproduct of wanting to kick Hitler's ass) without realising they're now enabling the same thing to happen to another ethnic group.

[-] Wogi@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The fuck is wrong with this world?

Religion.

Ok maybe not all of it, and not all religious people. Kinda like how #metoo wasn't actually about all men, just the problematic ones. When I say religion is what's wrong with the world I'm not talking about memaw going to church on Sunday. I'm talking about people fucking people blowing each other up in the furtherance of what they perceive to be some divine goal.

Sure, the type of person to feverishly go to war over some stories would probably be extremely opinionated without religion, but you don't see anyone going down to the fucking Renaissance faire with a rifle because of the guys dressed as pirates.

Believing things strongly isn't the problem. It's the system of organized moral superiority that's the problem.

[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 10 months ago

If I say the Chinese government is committing crimes against humanity no one thinks I’m a racist.

I see you haven't met any tankies

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

They're such a small group of extremists that their opinion doesn't matter, that's all! 😂

[-] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The foundational myth of Israel is that Jewishness is a national essence holding a supreme right to control over particular territory, above the rights of those who contest the right.

Conceding the distinction between antisemitism and criticism of Israel is conceding the fallaciousness of the myth on which depends "Israel's right to exist".

Protecting the myth depends on disparaging any Jewishness of critics and disparaging the humanness of the occupied population.

Jews must be united in their claim to the lands, and any opposing the claim must be opposed, as an opponent of undivided and untainted Jewishness.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago

Which is funny since there's plenty of Jews that are against Israel at the moment or as an artificial construct instead of a miracle from God, believing that it should be peacefully dismantled so that God would be the one to choose when they are to go back from exile, not men.

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[-] AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

I would actually disagree on China, the position that it was possible the WIV was the cause of COVID was successful painted as xenophobic or racist, rather than a viable option.

Which always struck me as odd considering a bunch of your people eating random jungle meat so much they cause worldwide diseases sounds like you could be way more racist about it. Yet, somehow that was painted as the less racist option.

[-] tslnox@reddthat.com 15 points 10 months ago

I haven't read the article, but the title made me go "what the fuck"?

Of course it's not antisemitism. It would only be antisemitism if you said "those people are bad because they are Jews".

Or am I wrong?

[-] axemurber@lemmy.world 17 points 10 months ago

You have to remember that you are on lemmy here that is inherently more left and pro Palestine. There are people that get their news through sources that are using this argument against anti Israel arguments.

This letter is meant for those people.

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 14 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

In Germany the public discourse as lead by political parties and mainstream media , but also cultural organizations is pretty much claiming any criticism of the shape of thr Israeli state, any analysis towards the occupation as a source of violence or current criticism of israeli war crimes as antisemitism.

Because of that jewish protests for palestinian human rights have been banned like arab and leftist protests, jewish protesters have been violently arrested by police, palestinians have been kicked out of book faires, art exhibitions and other events where just before they were supposed to receive prizes. The head of the main government party has loudly cancelled a meeting with Bernie Sanders because he would be too critical of Israel. Sanders is a jew and has lived in Israel in the past.

So in Germany the term antisemitism is instrumentalised to supress any serious criticism of Israel, which includes in particular jewish criticism of Israel.

By the perversion of the term, Germany is acting antisemitic by banning jewish voices from the public, sometimes with police violence and denyingthe existence of plurality in the jewish communities.

Incidently they try to blame arabs and other immigrants for antisemitism in Germany, deflecting from the widespread antisemitism in German mainstream society. Just two month ago the vice-prime-minister of the state of Bavaria was uncovered to be a Holocaust endorsing Neonazi in his youth and instead of it harming his election it helped his election. Also now the Bavarian state attorneys are investigating the people who brought this Neonazi past to light.

[-] RichCaffeineFlavor@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-actions-combat-antisemitism-college-campuses-rcna122712

The US is cracking down on protests right now based on this pretext

And not just right now. For decades you would lose your job in academia and media for showing too much sympathy for Palestinians.

[-] merthyr1831@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago

Always amuses me how there's endless discourse about Islam being antisemitic and therefore movements associated with muslims are jew-hating pogroms, but the reality is almost all antisemitic attacks across the "Western world" are done by white christians.

It's purely projection from the columnists and newsreaders who see antisemitism as a tactic to shut down anti-colonial protests.

[-] lugal@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 months ago

What do you guys think about Thunberg's statement? In my country it's framed as antisemitic and FFF Germany renounced it but I don't think so

[-] M137@lemm.ee 8 points 10 months ago

I don't understand why FFF would denounce it, they're a climate strike movement, nothing to do with this. I feel like someone at the "top" of FFF managed to get their own agenda into this, it's so strange for someone like them to condemn a call for ceasefire.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 7 points 10 months ago
[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 18 points 10 months ago

the world needs to speak up and call for an immediate ceasefire, justice and freedom for Palestinians and all civilians affected

We are of course against any type of discrimination, and condemn antisemitism in all forms and shapes. This is non-negotiable

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 16 points 10 months ago

That does not ring antisemitic at all.

That statement was denounced?

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 20 points 10 months ago

Asking for a ceasefire is apparently antisemitic.

[-] NotBillMurray@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago

You never know, there could be a secret Hamas tunnel under that ceasefire.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 10 points 10 months ago

Even when in the next breath you are making it explicitly clear that your comments carry zero prejudice, only concern for civilians.

[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago

The second part of the statement was added later. She was denounced because she initially only mentioned sympathy for the victims in Palestine, omitting the Israeli victims. After criticism, she added the second part to her statement.

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[-] lugal@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

They called Israel an apartheid state (which Amnesty international also did at some point) and had an octopus stuffed animal (which is an antisemitic dogwhistle).

I don't think that they knew about the dogwhistle but then again I don't know why to but a random stuff animal there in the first place.

German media often says "antisemitic and anti-Israel" as if they were the same. Is that the case in other western media as well or is it a German thing due to our history?

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago

Oh I didn't know about the octopus. That is weird, I'll look into it thanks.

And at this point, it would be difficult to not classify israel as an apartheid state.

Conflating antisemitic and anti-Israel is not just a German thing, but I think it's very rare to hear "anti-Israel" in the English-speaking news I read. I only ever hear pro israel pro Palestine, which may imply you are anti one or the other, but the discrete term anti-Israel almost never comes up is that I read anyway. Anti-civilian death anti terrorism, anti the specific acts rather than anti a whole country.

I hear "anti-Zionist" incorrectly conflated with antisemitic more often in the news I come across, anti-zionism is accused of rejecting the establishment of an Israeli state, but anti-zionism also refers to rejecting the continuous illegal israeli occupation of Palestine, so can be seen as a racist dog whistle or a protest against imperialism based on who's saying it and who's interpreting it.

The west is so majority-supportive of Israel as a military ally and the Holocaust is so historically recent and rightly popularly vilified that most people take the Israeli side or look at a conflict solely from their perspective regardless of what the news is.

[-] nightscout@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I am not Jewish, but I am married to an Israeli and have spent a decent amount of time in Israel, having traveled to many areas of the country.

The current situation is not surprising and it really comes down to one thing: LAND & RESOURCES.

All of the rhetoric about apartheid, anti-semitism, genocide, pogroms, etc, etc, etc are merely cover-ups for the real issue: Israel is a TINY piece of land that now supports close to 10 million people. The birthrate in Israel among everyone is among the highest in the world. Even secular Jews rarely have fewer than 3 kids. Muslim Arabs and Orthodox Jews frequently have 8, 9, 10 or more kids.

I have been visiting Israel fairly regularly over the last 20 years and I have seen the visible effects this uncontrolled population growth has had. Land is at a premium, everything is expensive and scarce, and it is FREAKING CROWDED. Towns and villages often support far more people than they were designed to support. Everyone there is worried about water and land and money.

And so you get to the real issue - this is about a fight over land. It’s a fight over which group is going to have a place for their own families and future generations to live there. It’s about fights over resources like water.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

I think a lot of the discussion is very rightly focused on the war crimes and human rights abuses, but you're absolutely correct.

[-] qnick@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

I personally think that Netanyahu made many huge mistakes, including building the wall, and he should resign and leave politics forever, but I'm going to criticize him only after Hamas is eliminated.

Now, any pro-Palestinian voice is perceived as pro-Hamas. I heard the crowd chanting "from the river to the sea", which basically means "kill all Jews". It is antisemitism, yes.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is not an antisemitic chant. It's calling for the liberation of Palestinians from their genocidal apartheid.

[-] qnick@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

By killing all Jews and destroying the state of Israel. This is literally their political program.

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

If you're referring to "landback", that's a far deeper act of decolonization that indigenous people all across the world have started fighting for, rooted in leftist revolutionary ideals. It started with Native Americans. No one gets genocided in landback, that's a colonialist projection. Explain how it's a slogan for genocide.

[-] qnick@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

Most of Arab countries have far-right government. Hamas is a far-right terrorist organization. What are you talking about?

[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

I don't give a fuck about Hamas in this conversation. This is strictly about liberation for oppressed peoples.

[-] qnick@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

When you talk about liberation, it's usually good to clarify what exactly you mean by that.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine was called "liberation" too by the Kremlin.

[-] kurwa@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

Liberation means that Palestinians get to be treated as human beings, not trapped in an open air prison, not limited to the bare minimum amount of food and water, and not harassed and beaten by the IDF just for being Palestinian. They live in an apartheid state with very few rights or freedoms.

[-] qnick@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Unfortunately, some of the people that you support, have a different understanding of the same word. They think that the only way they can be liberated is by murdering me and my family.

I feel like a black person explaining what "All lives matter" means.

[-] leraje 7 points 10 months ago

Right. And those people who want that are terrorists.

But that opinion doesn't extend to every single Palestinian or every supporter of Palestinian people anymore than every Irish Catholic thinks the same as an IRA member or every American thinks the same as a Proud Boy or (as this letter makes clear) every ethnic (as oppose to religious) Jew think the same as Netanyahu.

[-] Lynthe@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 months ago

But I am happy to condemn those who use phrases which are used extensively by hate groups. When Sadaam Hussain, Iran, and Hamas leadership all use the phrase from the river to the sea it's perfectly reasonable to associate it with their antisemitism. A dog whistle cannot be understood in a vacuum, and must be understood within its historical context and contemporary use.

[-] leraje 2 points 10 months ago

Absolutely. I don't disagree with that at all. It's certainly not a phrase I'd ever use.

I do think though that there is a generation of people now for whom that phrase doesn't have that antisemitic direct meaning and that they genuinely are using it to indicate their wish for freedom for Palestinians. Maybe that's me being naive and as I say, I certainly would never use it as I'm part of a generation where it was used as an expression of pure antisemitism.

[-] KepBen@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago

I personally think that Netanyahu made many huge mistakes, including building the wall, and he should resign and leave politics forever, but I'm going to criticize him only after Hamas is eliminated.

Idunno man this kinda sounds like as a politician he has no incentive to eliminate Hamas and every incentive to radicalize more Palestinians against him.

[-] Sparlock@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Wild, you are the person the article was written to inform.
Yet you missed the point entirely..

this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2023
444 points (100.0% liked)

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