I often think what life in this continent would be like had there never been any colonialism. But if Europe still had contact with the native peoples and their nations through trade. How would the people here have evolved?
You might enjoy the book 1491 a lot - it goes over what populations existed before contact, and even explores the period when people would make decisions between whether they would stay a colonial resident or join a native country - and vice versa. Turns out it was very much down to the person.
Of course, it also has the mind-blowing fact that we lost roughly 92% of the population of the Americas to disease - which is how the Europeans walked into the "New World" so easily, but also why they had to start importing slaves from Africa. The author frames it as if we just suddenly lost all of China - and laments the cultural exchange we've lost as a result.
10/10 read, would recommend if you like the topic.
I’ve got a lot of family in the Caribbean and it’s interesting how much of the flora and food culture has also been changed by resettlement.
Where my family is, the tradition cuisine is generally African or Indian influenced and many of the veggies and fruits were brought from these places. Even botanical gardens that are trying to create a wild food forest are doing so with mangoes, papaya, breadfruit, etc which were all Asian imports. When I go there, I’m often left wondering what these islands looked like in centuries past and what the cuisine was.
like the carribean monk seal that became extinct, the haiwain one is very endangered. i was looking at flora and fauna, so many went extinct when humans came to islands.( like giant and another solenedons which became extinct pretty recently), plus the related nosphentes which has its lineages traced back to the cretaceous.
Mann's follow-up book 1493 is equally good.
Probably using the same system that they evolved elsewhere. Humans be humans
Depending on how long they would be isolated.
Central american powers were starting to play with the Empire idea when europeans came along.
They might have had a Genghis Kang sooner or later.
Also contact by trade would have been almost as lethal as the conquest. Remember that most death were because the diseases the europeans brought with them.
Make America Turtle Island Again
Land Back.
There would have been no genocide in the modern view if it weren't for those crass, profit seeking, and bloodthirsty Europeans that invaded. They really need to take the responsibility for their actions. And the bulk of that genocide occurred before the US existed because the diseases those Europeans brought to the Americas that the existing inhabitants had no immunity to.
Yep. The genocide stopped the second the USA declared independence. It did not continue for even a second after that, and there wasn't a single other genocide since then.
Truly perfect comment to write on July 4th. Uncle Sam would be proud of you. If you also massacred a bunch of children, that is.
No it did not. And I never said it did. But the actions of those Europeans that colonized the Americas, (and anywhere else they set foot), are still felt yet to this day. And those Europeans have massacred their share to children also. They just sweep that part under the rug. They even added to the lexicon of war by giving us WW1 and WW2.
Right, the genocide definitely stopped in 1776. Yup. That was the end of it. Mhm.
I never said that it did. But the European powers never stopped their genocides due to colonizations either. The apple seldom falls far from the tree. But the Europeans seldom get the credit for all the things they did to bring the world to this point.
Genocide requires intention, the ginormous loss of life because of diseases is not, in a legal sense, a genocide. Not arguing that Europe colonizing the Americas wasn't like a genocide, in some places it certainly was — but the people dying of disease is not a genocide, more like a mass-extinction event.
That is certainly a comfort to all those that died.
Probably not but a word like genocide shouldn't be watered down, especially not if there are currently genocides happening intentionally in Palesta, Sudan and Xinjiang.
Exactly, don't look at me! It was already like that when I got here!
They really need to take the responsibility
The people that colonized the americas died a long ago lmao
Are you sure about that?
You mean before the genocide? It's a pretty good guess.
No tribes totally wiping another out before then? History is not that kind. I doubt it was a utopic land before someone else arrived.
"those dirty savages were killing each other before they were invaded and killed by noble ~~white people~~ Europeans who brought civilization and peace? I'm just asking questions here I'm definitely not making excuses or trying to diminish what happened"
Humans are pretty horrifically violent across time. For example before the Spanish arrived there were the Aztecs who were wiping out entire tribes, enslaving them, and torturing them quite gruesomely. I'm not saying the Spanish are good guys or that the Aztecs are bad guys. I'm specifically saying humans are violent and metal as fuck essentially regardless of circumstance.
People been enslaving, genociding, torturing, raping one another long before anyone even lived in Europe.
Historically speaking, it heavily depended on where you were. Supposedly many East-Cast tribes, especially the Cherokee were already conglomerates of several other tribes.
Horses were also a new element in the world of Native Americans, and surely had a good bit to do with leveling the playing field between warring tribes.
source: old man wisdom, dyor
All i'm saying is there's no violence that westerners have done that wasn't already done at some other time before they arrived. The difference is the distance, the scale and of course the cultural and ethnic differences. I've found that the more different the dominating group is from the victim group the more well atrocities are remembered. It's still ethnically visible for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Like for instance the Aztecs were extremely brutal in wiping out other tribes and enslavement as well as torture but no one really complains about that today. It's all a wash. Their people and the people they tormented are hard to tell apart now in contrast to people of Spanish dissent and of course to this day there's a white preference in the region. It's just easier to see and draw lines when people look more visibly different.
I see. There is no difference except for the differences.
Like for instance the Aztecs were extremely brutal in wiping out other tribes and enslavement as well as torture but no one really complains about that today.
In contrast to the Aztecs the colonial powers are still in power and are still enacting violence and genocide.
No, the difference is the level of violence. They also brought germ warfare and gunpowder.
I didn't say it was a utopia. When people refer to a genocide of Native Americans, people usually know which one.
there were wars yes. "totally wiping another out" tho? that was a european import.
even if it was the case that First Nations were genociding each other (which again, it’s not), that still doesn’t justify european colonialism in any way.
He was the genocider before he became the genocidee
Fairly certain existing people didn't use resource extraction to fuel imperialism worldwide and invent and perpetuate the trans Atlantic slave trade, yes.
There was still a slave trade in North and South America prior to the Europeans coming, it was just their own people being enslaved rather than an importation of people from Africa. South and Central American empires were not all sunshine and rainbows; although North America did not have a standing civilization as far as I know, the tribes that did exist enslaved and killed each other constantly. People are shitty regardless of the continent they are born on.
Did I say these things did not exist before then?
America was great until those immigrants arrived.
All that damage to those cultures for this goddamn mess of a nightmare.
death to america
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