All that damage to those cultures for this goddamn mess of a nightmare.
America was great until those immigrants arrived.
Makes me think of rewatching Apocalypto.
he is the one who can really wear the "make America great again" hat
But the name won’t be really America, though.
I often think what life in this continent would be like had there never been any colonialism. But if Europe still had contact with the native peoples and their nations through trade. How would the people here have evolved?
Depending on how long they would be isolated.
Central american powers were starting to play with the Empire idea when europeans came along.
They might have had a Genghis Kang sooner or later.
Also contact by trade would have been almost as lethal as the conquest. Remember that most death were because the diseases the europeans brought with them.
You call this evolution. It's humanity devolving. At least natives were free people.
Right??? I look at European societies in the 1500-1600s and it wasn't much better than what we have today. It was the same kind of shit with rich people ruling over everything.
Meanwhile most of the native peoples here were free, as in REALLY free.
But I don't know about Central and South American societies though. They must have had some form of society where the richer people had more control. We seem to evolve that way.
I reckon more than a few people there would be incentivised to play catch up and start avery fast paced industrial revolution.
Certain advancements were only enabled because of catastrophe and that the surviving population rebounded. Had Old World diseases not struck the New World, I reckon a plague would've hit at some point anyhow.
I wonder...
East Asia wasn't struck by the plague as far as I know. It was contained to Europe, North Africa and West Asia.
EDIT: Sorry. To clarify what I mean is that maybe the had means to quarantine people and stop the spread of infections diseases. Maybe their hygiene was much better too. A lot of it was due to poor Hygiene. But yeah, maybe a pandemic could have happened like anywhere else I suppose, sooner or later.
The Black Plague was first recorded 1330s in China long before it began its migration to the West. However, you were right in the aspect that China in general had a strong administrative and bureaucratic base which allows coordinating disaster relief efforts.
Plus, the advantage of having rice means they could afford to feed citizenry very well in most cases.
Also, China as we know it today didn't exactly exist, but it's better to understand and obeserve the various polities that came and went during the centuries. Each would have different circumstances and administrative power in combating disasters as they happened.
Oh, no doubt!
Europe would be the singularly industrialized hub of the world. North America would look like Africa, South America and much of Asia.
I mean.... you forget China. And most of Asia. They were already pretty advanced. They introduced math and science and philosophy to Europe.
Not to mention there were important trade routes between Europe and China. And north Africa too.
I'd bet technology would've made its way into central and South America where they already were pretty advanced.
Not without the colonialism.
Who colonized China?
England, So iets, US, and the CCP
Edit - I tend to be more of a Han Chinese sympathizer before the CCP made their moves post WW2
I think you're forgetting the time frame of the discussion here. We're talking about the plague which happened in the late middle-ages. China was essentially the central power of Asia back then.
Plague was before mass European colonization started, right? France, England, Spain sea power came a good bit after if I remember correctly.
Kahn and the reign of the Steps came after China's major history. It certainly wasn't in shambles but well past the main kingdoms.
You might enjoy the book 1491 a lot - it goes over what populations existed before contact, and even explores the period when people would make decisions between whether they would stay a colonial resident or join a native country - and vice versa. Turns out it was very much down to the person.
Of course, it also has the mind-blowing fact that we lost roughly 92% of the population of the Americas to disease - which is how the Europeans walked into the "New World" so easily, but also why they had to start importing slaves from Africa. The author frames it as if we just suddenly lost all of China - and laments the cultural exchange we've lost as a result.
10/10 read, would recommend if you like the topic.
I’ve got a lot of family in the Caribbean and it’s interesting how much of the flora and food culture has also been changed by resettlement.
Where my family is, the tradition cuisine is generally African or Indian influenced and many of the veggies and fruits were brought from these places. Even botanical gardens that are trying to create a wild food forest are doing so with mangoes, papaya, breadfruit, etc which were all Asian imports. When I go there, I’m often left wondering what these islands looked like in centuries past and what the cuisine was.
Probably using the same system that they evolved elsewhere. Humans be humans
I wonder.
Even Japan had colonization from the mainland peoples that drastically changed the native culture which seemed to resemble much more the American native people's culture.
Make America Turtle Island Again
Land Back.
There would have been no genocide in the modern view if it weren't for those crass, profit seeking, and bloodthirsty Europeans that invaded. They really need to take the responsibility for their actions. And the bulk of that genocide occurred before the US existed because the diseases those Europeans brought to the Americas that the existing inhabitants had no immunity to.
Yep. The genocide stopped the second the USA declared independence. It did not continue for even a second after that, and there wasn't a single other genocide since then.
Truly perfect comment to write on July 4th. Uncle Sam would be proud of you. If you also massacred a bunch of children, that is.
Right, the genocide definitely stopped in 1776. Yup. That was the end of it. Mhm.
Genocide requires intention, the ginormous loss of life because of diseases is not, in a legal sense, a genocide. Not arguing that Europe colonizing the Americas wasn't like a genocide, in some places it certainly was — but the people dying of disease is not a genocide, more like a mass-extinction event.
Are you sure about that?
You mean before the genocide? It's a pretty good guess.
No tribes totally wiping another out before then? History is not that kind. I doubt it was a utopic land before someone else arrived.
Was it perfect? No. Did they kill literally 90% of the population on their own before Columbus showed up? Also no.
Haven't argued that point in the slightest. In fact I've said as much myself in this thread alone.
"those dirty savages were killing each other before they were invaded and killed by noble ~~white people~~ Europeans who brought civilization and peace? I'm just asking questions here I'm definitely not making excuses or trying to diminish what happened"
Humans are pretty horrifically violent across time. For example before the Spanish arrived there were the Aztecs who were wiping out entire tribes, enslaving them, and torturing them quite gruesomely. I'm not saying the Spanish are good guys or that the Aztecs are bad guys. I'm specifically saying humans are violent and metal as fuck essentially regardless of circumstance.
People been enslaving, genociding, torturing, raping one another long before anyone even lived in Europe.
I didn't say it was a utopia. When people refer to a genocide of Native Americans, people usually know which one.
there were wars yes. "totally wiping another out" tho? that was a european import.
even if it was the case that First Nations were genociding each other (which again, it’s not), that still doesn’t justify european colonialism in any way.
Historically speaking, it heavily depended on where you were. Supposedly many East-Cast tribes, especially the Cherokee were already conglomerates of several other tribes.
Horses were also a new element in the world of Native Americans, and surely had a good bit to do with leveling the playing field between warring tribes.
source: old man wisdom, dyor
Fairly certain existing people didn't use resource extraction to fuel imperialism worldwide and invent and perpetuate the trans Atlantic slave trade, yes.
There was still a slave trade in North and South America prior to the Europeans coming, it was just their own people being enslaved rather than an importation of people from Africa. South and Central American empires were not all sunshine and rainbows; although North America did not have a standing civilization as far as I know, the tribes that did exist enslaved and killed each other constantly. People are shitty regardless of the continent they are born on.
Did I say these things did not exist before then?
death to america
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