BioChem PhDs are Unemployable : labrats

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 3 points 9 hours ago

I won't tell the full story here but I almost had a job scouting research like this. A billionaire wanted to do innovative science work and provide seed money for edge work outside the mainstream. It would have been enough to get preliminary data to get things into regular NIH/NSF funding streams. My job would have been to decide which side of crazy/genius people fell on. It would have been a cool gig.

The whole thing fell apart because his wife got involved and wanted her people in their foundation to handle it. They were based out of Boston and came from the drug industry. They took over the project and it turned into just another privately funded conference for the already successful scientists. Fin.

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 27 points 1 day ago

It's ridiculous. There's so much AI hype, but using AI for protein design? Nah, we're not funding that -- it's not natural. These billionaires want immortality, but biological research and innovation? Nah, we're gonna "upload our brains" to computers -- whatever that means.

Fairly certain I have the most realistic plan for biological immortality by using protein design to create new pathways in cell therapies, and I can't find a post-doc position much less any path to professorships. I'm exactly what "society" pretends it wants, and I'm struggling just to find a path.

[-] Alienmonkey@mander.xyz 14 points 1 day ago

Don't worry fam, I have a guaranteed, proven, 3step plan to get your research funded.

Step 1: Create shell company.

Step 2: Create and market protein building protein bars with the ability to "create a compound interest effect" on your protein receptor cells.

Step 3: After company either makes money, is sued, or some combination of both, use the hype to generate interest in your theory as a new "longevity therapy that conventional science doesn't understand" and get the idiots that bought your protein bars to fund the actual research.

The plan is essentially guaranteed to work when it does.

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 8 points 1 day ago

Hah, I've considered making a company doing research, paying myself a big salary, letting the company fail then using the big salary money as a sort of mini reesearch endowment to finish the research. I know the research wouldn't get done fast enough for the VC types to be happy, but if I could save enough money and disappear enough equipment when it all fell apart I might have enough to sustain the research.

Maybe make the building and the research company separate entities let the research company fail but use the money it paid in rent to have a lab. Could even rent out lab space to other companies to fund my own research. Unfortunately, building buildings in areas where research labs tend to be is expensive as hell, and at a certain point the effort becomes more realty management than science.

[-] plyth@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Have you tried applying in China? Supposedly they are heavily investing in science.

AI for protein design?

What's the difference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaFold ?

Fairly certain I have the most realistic plan for biological immortality

That sounds a bit overconfident.

I’m exactly what “society” pretends it wants

Does it, or just some billionaires? Immortal overpopulation doesn't sound good.

Billionaires may want it. Have you thought about contacting rich people directly like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Johnson ?

If that fails, how much money do you need and what do you think you can achieve?

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 7 points 1 day ago

All of my interviews have been with either Chinese labs or Chinese labs in the US. They've all been very pleasant, if non-committal. I hoping one of them will offer me a position. I often joke that I barely know English (my only language), so I'm not sure going to China is a wise move, but I can see the way the wind is blowing, so I think I should learn the language since that seems like it'll be useful in the future regardless. I just can't hear tones...

Yeah, alphafold is definitely apart of AI for protein design. Alphafold is one of the seq-> structure tools, but we also have None->Structure and Structure -> Seq tools. A lot of my personal work is building scripts that judge these output and filter out or modify the junk to get realistic usable proteins. I've spent about a year making personal scripts along those lines, so my tool box is definitely coming along.

Fairly certain I have the most realistic plan for biological immortality

That sounds a bit overconfidential.

Over-Confidential or Over-Confident? For Over-confidential, I'm not really worried about competition as I've seen what pass for innovative biology, and I'm profoundly unimpressed. For over-confident, yeah I mean research always take more time than we'd like and involves unexpected challenges. I'm certain that my plans can be made to work, but it'll take a lot of work - that's what I need the funding for.

Have you thought about contacting rich people directly

Rich people want payoffs measured in like two-to-three years. They tend to want late-stage research at least near translation phase, and I'm all very early basic research. We've really only recently gained the (theoretical) ability to built the foundational pathways, and there will certainly be peripheral pathways required to make it actually work.

If that fails, how much money do you need and what do you think you can achieve?

Depends on how I spend the money. In academia, they money is spent directly, but there's a high overhead. I'd say one each pathway is a project in and of itself; though, some are definitely easier than others. If I was a professor, then on the low end two R01s would get the four base pathways, which would be enough to create an organelle that stores and replicates the DNA to be delivered. Probably that's a bit of an optimistic estimate, but I don't think it'd require an R01 per pathway.

IF I can find a professor interested in one of the base pathways, I might be able to work on it along side whatever they hired me to work on, so the easiest pathway might be done in a year or two. If I was to do a fellowship that's something like ~60k/yr post doc salary + benefits -- or something I don't know the exact salaries.

Of course, outside of academia money gets weird. The overhead is lower but the data is shabbier and takes longer to get. Plus, I treat all my personal money as a research & survival endowment -- meaning I save vast amounts of money, but will eventually be able to persistently spend on DIY research ... well at least that's my fall back plan if I can't find funding in academia, right now I'd be luck to afford a shed on a fifth an acre of land.

...

Of course all this assumes the more immediate pitch of I'm pretty sure I can use protein design create custom crystal chaperones isn't what I get hired for, and of the three interviews I have two were far more interested in the de-novo crystal chaperones. That's a really useful project too. It will have a big effect on struct bio when I get it working, and I'm further along there in many ways. It also sorta kinda overlaps very slightly with one of the base pathways, so it's still getting us a smidge closer to the goal. Hopefully, having lots of ideas will give me more opportunities to land a post-doc position.

[-] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

All of my interviews have been with either Chinese labs or Chinese labs in the US.

That's remarkable. Could it be that US companies rely on their network and you are not a networking kind of person?

Over-Confidential or Over-Confident?

Over-confident, but over-confidential led to

as I’ve seen what pass for innovative biology, and I’m profoundly unimpressed.

I think that's intentional to keep the knowlege in the process and rely on simple, inevitable progress and thus prevent scientists from gaining more influence than necessary. Fast innovation hasn't been necessary for a long time, until now with China.

. I’m certain that my plans can be made to work, but it’ll take a lot of work - that’s what I need the funding for.

A society without the need for results can wait until it is easy because all other steps were made. That's why my totally uninformed opinion is that rich people should be more eager to invest.

Rich people want payoffs measured in like two-to-three years.

Unless they don't want to die. You offer hope for the one thing that money can't buy yet. Even if the research is not protectable, they may lose their investment but they gain life.

Do you have a good team or can you reliably acquire a good team? That should be the most important part for getting your funding.

gained the (theoretical) ability to built the foundational pathways,

How does it work, roughly?

require an R01 per pathway.

Do you need specialized machines or rooms?

R01 is $500,000 per year for five years. So you are looking for at most $10,000,000, which would include rent for machines and labs and include all wages?

create an organelle that stores and replicates the DNA to be delivered.

Is that already a product? Can that end aging by providing cells with missing molecules? It sounds more like the first step, as you said elsewhere, it's basic research. What is missing afterwards?

de-novo crystal chaperones. That’s a really useful project too. It will have a big effect on struct bio when I get it working, and I’m further along there in many ways.

Sounds good, especially if it helps you to build momentum for your pathway project.

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 1 points 1 day ago

Maybe. Does China do less networking? I don't get networking. Like, I vaguely understand that you make friends with people and somehow that leads to employment, but I don't actually know how to make friends with people. Sometimes when I talk at people they like me, but more often they seem to find me annoying... There's some guessing here, but it's not insecurity or whatever it's a genuine inability to like intuit what's going on in most situations. I do think I'm getting better at both talking to people and intuiting things as I get older. There's a lot of me shutting up earlier and stopping to think rather a lot on people's words and the implications of their words and the nine things they might have meant and what's most likely -- kinda a lot of work, so I do better in repeated interactions. Like, now that I've sent a number of emails inquiring about post-doc positions, I get more responses. Now that I've had a few interviews, I have some idea of what not to say what to emphasize or mitigate. It's all needlessly complicated in my opinion.

I think that’s intentional to keep the knowlege in the process and rely on simple, inevitable progress and thus prevent scientists from gaining more influence than necessary.

No, I think that's conspiratorial. I agree that social structures could be used to push innovation much more effectively, but I think this is more a matter of mass ignorance and intellectual laziness than deliberate scheming. Then again, given current political leadership in the US flip a coin to see if it's scheming or stupidity.

Do you have a good team or can you reliably acquire a good team? That should be the most important part for getting your funding.

Don't have friends or the money to buy them.

Do you need specialized machines or rooms?

Depends on how you define specialized, but to some extent yes definitely. Gotta do cell culture, gotta do crystallography and BLI, protein purification, basic ecoli stuff for cloning. A surprising amount of this can be done at home or in a DIY setting, but some stuff is just too expensive.

R01 is $500,000 per year for five years. So you are looking for at most $10,000,000, which would include rent for machines and labs and include all wages?

Hmm, Seems a bit high. For grad-students 50k salaries * 1.5 for benefits = 75k/yr plus the reagents ~60k?/yr maybe I don't have a good enough grasp on regent costs? There is definitely equipment costs, but those are one time purchases and few are over 50k. Yeah, I don't know what the correct answer here is. I know most of these are in line with R01 sized projects, but I don't know where the additional costs are coming from in a standard R01. I think R01 are up to 500k/yr, so that might explain part of it, and they often also cover professor salaries which are another 150k-200k/yr + benefits, so that might explain more of it. Context matters. If it was me coming up with the money, I don't have to pay myself. If someone else is paying me, then more money is required and I get to put that pay into my own research endowment fund thing. I'm pretty sure I could do it eventually with a 1M endowment, but speed is the other context issue.

create an organelle that stores and replicates the DNA to be delivered.

Is that already a product? Can that end aging by providing cells with missing molecules? It sounds more like the first step, as you said elsewhere, it’s basic research. What is missing afterwards?

No, this is not a product at least not in anyway that I'm talking about. The central dogma of molecular biology is DNA->RNA->Protein, so if we can change someone's DNA we can change everything about them. The challenge here is changing the DNA in very cell (or every relevant cell) in the body. It's a delivery problem. If we could reliably modify the DNA of large cell populations, we could cure almost any disease. It would revolutionize medicine, especially preventative medicine. It is a first step in that other scientists would go on to test what different DNA sequences they might add to get different results, but there are plenty of obvious changes that would dramatically extend lifespans. One thing I wish other scientists would do is push to duplicate genes or install gene sets in model organisms (i.e. modify the embryos by adding genes). While that's done occasionally, it's generally seen as irrelevant because we can't do that in fully grown humans and won't do that on human embryos (for good reasons).

[-] plyth@feddit.org 2 points 13 hours ago

I’m pretty sure I could do it eventually with a 1M endowment

Try EU funding. Before you apply, try to contact people who succeeded and ask them for advice.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_25_2123

https://erc.europa.eu/news-events/news/erc-2024-advanced-grants-results

[-] plyth@feddit.org 2 points 13 hours ago

I don’t get networking.

People don't like to hire unknown people. So if there are people within the company who can vouch for you that puts you ahead. They could also tell you about openings before they are published. This is good for the company because their work culture will more likely match with the candidate if they share a network.

Maybe you can create a network of people who don't like to network? You could contact those people who you know and initially ask for advise in your situation.

Don’t have friends or the money to buy them.

Maybe you can find a way to keep in touch with the people you trust and with whom you would like to work?

but some stuff is just too expensive.

Can this be rented? If a billionaire finances you, how much does it cost to get that stuff?

I’m pretty sure I could do it eventually with a 1M endowment,

Make a list with all your requirements and the prices. Then you can talk to investors and not just specialists who try to match you to their own research interests.

we could cure almost any disease.

Ok, but how does it fit into your pitch?

Fairly certain I have the most realistic plan for biological immortality by using protein design to create new pathways in cell therapies

but there are plenty of obvious changes that would dramatically extend lifespans

How obvious? How much research is needed on top to make them work? How much would that cost?

we can’t do that in fully grown humans

So does it help for immortality for billionaires at all?

[-] tristynalxander@mander.xyz 3 points 7 hours ago

we can’t do that in fully grown humans

So does it help for immortality for billionaires at all?

That was me describing the current state of affairs. When I get my project working, we will be able to modify DNA in adult humans, which is why the project would be such a big deal and why we'd be able to cure almost any disease, including aging.

...

For the rest, yeah, I'll look into pitching it to the billionaire's immortality research companies. I'm definitely skeptical, but any source of funding is good.

[-] plyth@feddit.org 2 points 7 hours ago

When I get my project working, we will be able to modify DNA in adult humans, which is why the project would be such a big deal

It is. For a million, it is a steal.

the billionaire’s immortality research companies.

Give the Europeans a chance first to finance you. When it will be used for evil you don't have to worry because you gave everybody the chance to finance it with public money.

If you are generous you could also try doing a kickstarter. It would be interesting to see if the public is willing to finance such basic research on their own.

Good luck!

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago

Alphafold is a modeller, and it's only models until someone proves them.

Fucking Veritasium got that so wrong.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 2 points 21 hours ago

Nah, we’re gonna “upload our brains” to computers – whatever that means.

It means, with any luck, we can do this with them:

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 day ago

I have trained 16 PhD students in Biochemistry. They were all employed within months of defending, some before they finished.

[-] The_v@lemmy.world 7 points 22 hours ago

A BS in biochem is the same as one in psychology.... close to worthless without the PhD.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 3 hours ago

HR departments actually love hiring psych degrees if you don't mind the class treason

[-] plyth@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago

What do you think has made them successful? What have you taught them?

[-] couldhavebeenyou@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 day ago

Not OP, but probably biochemistry

[-] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 14 hours ago

Of course, but as a good mentor he must have taught additional skills.

[-] Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 day ago

Biochem major.

Joined the Navy.

LabRats