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submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by belluck to c/books@lemmy.world

It just seems incredibly odd for there to be so many lines in a book about gender insisting that there is no way to refer to someone (in the English language, at least) without implying gender. She even mentions the possibility of using „it“ at one point!

I’m liking the book otherwise, but every time the narrators ponder about pronouns without even considering „they“ I have to ask myself if there is any point in ignoring it or if she genuinely just forgot. I don’t think it’s possible for her to have not known about it considering how well-read she was and how long it’s been in use.

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[-] Dunstabzugshaubitze@feddit.org 22 points 2 weeks ago

In the afterword of the 25th anniversary edition of the novel, she stated that "The Left Hand of Darkness is haunted and bedeviled by the gender of its pronouns", and that she no longer believed that the masculine pronoun in English is generic, as she had when she wrote the book.

From the Wiki-Article about the Book

she used masculine pronouns as generic pronouns, which is still often done.

I guess it's a product of it's time in that regard, simmiliar to Tolkiens use of "Men" in Lotr being read as "Humans" in many cases when it was first published.

[-] belluck 5 points 2 weeks ago

She was already criticizing the generic „he“ while writing the book. It probably wouldn’t be bothering me so much if there weren’t entire passages debating it every few chapters without mentioning the possibility of the singular „they“.

[-] Dunstabzugshaubitze@feddit.org 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

there are many possible reasons for that:

  • she might have thought that the general critic on gender roles is allready enough for the reader
  • she saw singular "they" as something for written or formal language and not everyday talk, which is what most of the dialogue in the book is.
  • she was not happy with "they" since it can lead to confusion around singular and plural or did not see it as better alternative than a generic masculin pronoun for someother reason
  • she simply did not use "they" that way when she wrote the book.

I sadly don't own the anniversary edition, so i don't know if le guin elaborates further on that. It's definitely valid criticism however.

e: english grammar hard.

[-] Wataba@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

Considering he forgot women needed to exist for a species to work, I'm not so sure that was intentional.

[-] nagaram@piefed.social 4 points 2 weeks ago

^

Didn't read the book

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 17 points 2 weeks ago

It was written in 1969. "They" was always a plural pronoun, and to many people even today it sounds strange to apply it to a single person. She was correct: there was no pronoun equivalent to "he" or "she" in english that doesn't imply gender. We've coopted "they" and "them" for the purpose, but it's almost as much a new thing as if we had just invented a new word. There are quite a number of SF works where the society depicted has pronouns that don't imply gender - the authors just made them up.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.ca 31 points 2 weeks ago

That’s not correct.

This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

[-] Libb@piefed.social 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

(non English speaking, here)

  • I doubt many English speaking people had any idea back then that 'they' could be singular. Had they, I doubt that many 'singular' they proponents would have needed to fight so hard to make it accepted, you know.
  • Maybe She she just decided they was not right for the way she wanted to write.

The references accompanying the quote from Wikipedia, at last the Oxford dictionary one make it rather clear it's a much more recent acceptation to use it as a 'personal singular':

2009–
Used with reference to a person whose sense of personal identity does not correspond to conventional sex and gender distinctions, and who has typically asked to be referred to as they (rather than as he or she). (...)
In the 21st century, other th– pronouns (and the possessive adjective their) are sometimes used to refer to a named individual, so as to avoid revealing or making an assumption about that person's gender;

Only mentioning a 'generic reference', aka mentioning an individual as a generic representative of some larger group (ie, a student) dating back from 1450...

[-] belluck 8 points 2 weeks ago

Singular they may not have been used as a personal pronoun until recently, but that doesn’t mean writers haven’t been using it to refer to persons. It was frequently used to conceal a character’s gender by Shakespeare, for example.

It seems odd to me for the thought of using it to refer to persons of a people without gender didn’t occur to Le Guin even while she was writing passages debating the biases of using the generic „he“ and its alternatives.

[-] Libb@piefed.social 6 points 2 weeks ago

It seems odd to me for the thought of using it to refer to persons of a people without gender didn’t occur to Le Guin even while she was writing passages debating the biases of using the generic „he“ and its alternatives.

I consider her a real acute author. So, based on nothing but my intuition (I want that to be perfectly clear) I would rather question my own expectations and my own reading of her text than doubt she did not put in some serious reflection in it.

I mean, I would really not be surprised to learn she decided it was just not fit for the purpose she had in mind. Also, I insist on that aspect of the question, and that would need to be verified, but I doubt there were that many examples of such usage at that time and since she did not write the book for 2026 readers but for her contemporaries...

[-] hperrin@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 weeks ago

OP isn’t asking about they as a personal pronoun, they’re asking about they as a generic (non-gendered) singular pronoun. That’s exactly the usage that is centuries old.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 weeks ago

Hmm, true but it was used in the case where the specific person being referred to was unknown. "Somebody left their umbrella." It was not used the way OP is talking about, for a gender neutral individual.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

It was also used for someone known, but whose gender was not known or being hidden. Shakespeare used they this way. From there, it’s not a great leap to use they to refer to someone without a gender.

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

To the best of my knowledge it would be correct to say that English language style guides at the time treated they/them as strictly plural, but that was actually a more recent change (ie, within the last century or so). Singular they existed for centuries, only to fall out of style with the increasing formalization of the English language. It's use today is not a modern invention, but a return to its original usage.

So yes, Le Guin was probably taught that it is not proper to use it as a singular, and that's how anyone alive at that time would have been taught to use it. But that's not the same thing as saying it was "always" singular.

[-] Peppycito@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

They bothers me for that reason. It obfuscates the conversation. Makes me feel like Abbot and Costello. Almost every conversation about my daughters non binary friends requires clarification about who we're talking about and usually we revert to calling everyone by name. I'm all for personal expression and everything, but I wish we picked a new word.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 weeks ago

The way I put it to people who struggle with it is imagine you’ve invited a friend to dinner, and they ask “Do you mind if I bring a friend?” If you want to know what to cook, and you ask your friend, “Sure, but are they allergic to anything?” your friend will understand what you mean. Because you didn’t know the gender of your friend’s friend, you used “they” as a singular pronoun. Now just imagine you don’t know the biological sex of your daughter’s non-binary friends. It might help. :)

[-] Peppycito@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Okay, imagine you ask your teenage daughter what shenanigans she and her friends got up to on the weekend and try to track their happenings as the story progresses. Keep in mind there's three Thems in the mix. "and then they went.." "who they?" and it's either "oh, MJ" or it's 3 of them. Its clunky, imprecise and interupts the flow of the storytelling. We should have done what English has done every other time it needs a new word, steal one from another language.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 weeks ago

I’m all for neopronouns, and we do have them, but that would be even harder to teach people than the plural they. (Not to mention, it would face a lot more backlash.)

[-] Peppycito@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

My perfect word would be something in between he/she so you could switch to it halfway through when you misspeak. I'm not trying to be ignorant but grammatical conventions are quite ingrained.

[-] psycotica0@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 weeks ago

To be fair, I have the same problem when my wife is telling a story about her and her friends doing something. It's all "the she told her that she wasn't going to do that anymore" and I have to stop her and be like "wait wait, who told who that who wasn't going to do what anymore!?" 😅

I agree that "they" being plural sometimes too adds another dimension of figuring out what the girls were doing as a group rather than a girl was doing, but it's honestly already a shitshow. And (while I love my wife) made worse by a person who... maybe doesn't have their audience's interests in mind while telling a story. Because a well told story is structured to maintain a consistent use of pronouns and reintroduces by name when required. So, like, if we're talking about Carmen's story, she gets to be "she", and then you tell me how "she said to Joan, that Tabby had blah blah blah". That's a little bit the orator's fault.

New plan, we have first and second person pronouns (I and you), I think we need 5 new pronouns that correspond to "third person", "fourth person", "fifth person", etc.

And those can be gender non-specific, because the same problem happens when a guy is telling a story involving multiple guys. Then it can come up in the grammar that "Johnny was talking to Peter, and A told B that Richard was mad at A because C didn't go to B's BBQ."

Problem solved 😛

[-] Simon_Shitewood@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago

This would be just as much of a problem if they were boys or girls - multiple hes and shes instead of theys. The problem isn't "they", it always applies to multiple people of the same gender.

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 1 points 2 weeks ago

English could go the smart way and remove gender from the language entirely like pre-1910 Chinese or Farsi or the like.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 weeks ago

My son is trans and, prior to transitioning, when through a phase where he just felt non-binary. So e went from "she" to "they" to "he." I agree with you; though I felt it was important to refer to him in whatever was he felt appropriate, "they" always seemed awkward.

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 5 points 2 weeks ago

The singular "they" predates the existence of the USA. By several centuries. The first known written attestation to it dates back to the late 14th century. It was probably in common spoken use long before even that.

"They" was not, in short, "always" a plural pronoun.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 weeks ago

But wasn't it generally for an unknown person, like "I heard someone but I'm not seeing them"? Not to make a non-gendered pronoun for a particular person?

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 weeks ago
[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 weeks ago

The OP is about UKlG "forgetting" about "they" as a gender neutral, and they aren't talking about for an unknown person, they're talking about a specific person. I'm not moving the goalpost, this is the exact thing we're discussing.

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 weeks ago

What I responded to said this:

“They” was always a plural pronoun...

It wasn't always a plural pronoun. You were just plain wrong. So you moved the goalposts so you could be "right". And I pointed that out. It's not that hard to follow, you know.

Perhaps your original wording was just bad?

[-] sanguinepar@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

When my kid was still young enough to want me to, I would regularly read stories at bedtime, and one that we did was Adam-2 by Alistair Chisholm - and in that there's a non-binary character who uses "ze" and "hir" pronouns.

Took me quite a while to get used to it, even though I was reading direct from the page. Was quite effective though, once I got past my brain's hesitation.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 weeks ago

Hmmm, I've never read that one, but I read an awful lot of SF and fantasy, and I'm fairly positive I've seen ze and hir used that way in another work. I don't remember what though.

[-] sanguinepar@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Ah ok, could be he's borrowed it then 👍

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 14 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

"Why did a book published in 1969 not contain up to date thoughts of gender and gender terminology from 2026?"

I don't know. It's an absolute mystery to me. After all it's a well-known phenomenon that language never changes, that popular and accepted terminology never changes, and that all text ever written is timeless and static and never drifts in expression or meaning.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs god cyning!

English has never changed even once in its history!

[-] belluck 6 points 2 weeks ago

Singular they has been part of the English language since the 14th century.

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 2 points 2 weeks ago

It has not been part of style guides since the 14th century, however. Starting with the dumb "grammarians" of the 18th century it was frowned upon very heavily in the "professional" sphere to the point that for all practical purposes it was expunged from writing by the time of the early to mid 20th century. It still existed in the spoken language, sure. Kind of like "ain't". But it was viewed as an uneducated stance and people who wrote had its use practically beaten out of it. Kind of like "ain't".

[-] atx_aquarian@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Bodine (1975) – Androcentrism in Prescriptive Grammar

Excerpt of AI-generated findings:

Though published in 1975, Bodine’s landmark paper relies heavily on field data and structural analyses of English third-person singular sex-indefinite pronouns conducted during the late 1960s (specifically citing frameworks from Postal, 1969). Bodine categorizes this phenomenon into two main types:

  • Sex-unknown: e.g., "Who dropped their ticket?"

  • Mixed-sex, distributive: e.g., "Anyone can do it if they try hard enough."

Bodine notes that despite two centuries of intense prescriptive efforts by educators to enforce the generic "he", singular "they" remained the dominant colloquial and written choice for nonspecific referents throughout the 1960s.

Actual abstract from that article:

Abstract

This paper demonstrates that prior to the beginning of the prescriptive grammar movement in English, singular ‘they’ was both accepted and widespread. It is argued that the prescriptive grammarians' attack on singular ‘they’ was socially motivated, and the specific reasons for their attack are discussed. By analogy with socially motivated changes in second person pronouns in a variety of European languages, it is suggested that third person pronoun usage will be affected by the current feminist opposition to sex-indefinite ‘he’ – particularly since the well-established alternative, singular ‘they’, has remained widespread in spoken English throughout the two and a half centuries of its ‘official’ proscription. Finally, the implications of changes in third person singular, sex-indefinite pronouns for several issues of general interest within linguistics are explored. (Language change, sex roles and language, language attitudes, language planning, prescriptive grammar, pronouns.)

[-] ZDL@lazysoci.al 4 points 2 weeks ago

So you got AI to hallucinate a summary of a 1975 paper.

To talk about a book published in 1969.

Weird that the AI didn't summarize what Le Guin herself said on the topic.

It's almost as if reaching for AI isn't the smartest idea.

[-] atx_aquarian@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

I think you saw me say "AI" and replied too quickly. I didn't cite Le Guin. I used AI as a search tool to highlight one example of a paper discussing how the neutral "they" was commonplace during the time. I know it's just search results, which is why I disclaimed it was as such. Then I included the paper's abstract, which stands on its own enough to make the point that talking about a hypothetical era without the neutral "they" is not applicable to 1969.

[-] moonlight@fedia.io 4 points 2 weeks ago

It bothered me at first, but I interpreted it as part of the larger theme of the main character having difficulty truly accepting the people as genderless

[-] SqueakySpider@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 weeks ago
[-] belluck 1 points 2 weeks ago

Interesting read, thanks for sharing. That does put things into perspective, though I still disagree with her on some things.

[-] CombatWombat@feddit.online 3 points 2 weeks ago

I agree with Le Guin here, though only in hindsight. The singular they does imply gender, specifically a particular kind of nonbinary gender -- it makes perfect sense for someone to say "I don't use they/them pronouns; I prefer xe/xir." It's surprising she felt that at the time, though, since I don't think it had as wide adoption at that point. I wonder if she felt the singular they did imply gender, but specifically an indeterminate or unknown gender, since that was its primary use at the time.

[-] jerkface@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 weeks ago

The singular version of "they" is "one". Fite me.

this post was submitted on 27 May 2026
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