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submitted 1 year ago by frankyboi@lemmy.ca to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml
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[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 49 points 1 year ago

In their place i would rather prepare for scenario of unexpected collapse of United Kingdom.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago

To be fair, it's not exactly an unexpected scenario.

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

I would even say, desired.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

The world will be a better place when British regime falls, no question about that.

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[-] lowleveldata@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago

Who says they have not prepared for that?

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

Considering their preparations for other things, like brexit or covid i would say LOL.

[-] Pili@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago

UK politicians never really seem prepared for anything tbh

[-] Klear@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Very unlikely scenario. Expected collapse on the other hand...

[-] vacuumflower@vlemmy.net 3 points 1 year ago

I mean, collapse of Russia is something very much expected in Russia by many people since 1993.

What makes it less expected is that it hasn't happened in 30 years, though.

[-] teflocarbon@lemmy.world 46 points 1 year ago

As they mention in the article they anticipated a much slower collapse and likely prepared for that. But at the rate it’s currently going, it’s quite astounding. The fragmentation and internal strife in Russia are certainly not over.

I did read one article that made a reference to this more being an “end of the beginning” rather than the “beginning of the end”. Which I agree with. It hasn’t collapsed the federation overnight, but it’s certainly weakened it a hell of a lot.

[-] vacuumflower@vlemmy.net 4 points 1 year ago

Living in Russia, I have mixed feelings about this slow controlled collapse TBF.

For Russia itself, maybe things being over after a couple of months (or years) of civil war starting in 1999 would be better.

But for everybody else, of course, there are bigger risks associated with that. Not really something nuclear even, just economically less pleasant.

[-] dustedhands@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Are you in Russia right now? How are things over there?

[-] robolemmy@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago

I really hate reportage like this. Every government, even seemingly incompetent ones like the current crop in the UK, have hundreds or thousands of contingency plans for things of wildly varying likelihood. This is just one of those things.

This is just as informative as those articles that say eating sugar triggers the same receptors as cocaine. Yes it's true, but there aren't that many reward mechanisms in the brain, so a lot of shit hits those same receptors.

It's data and it's true, but it's not useful information.

[-] Dazawassa@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

We have a plan to invade literally every country and for if that country invades us that is updated regularly. I always found that kind of funny but it isn't shocking.

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[-] DarraignTheSane@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you're preparing for it, is it really that "unexpected"...?

[-] SRoss@feddit.de 15 points 1 year ago

You can be prepared for all kinds of things you aren't expecting. For example you could get occupational disablement insurance while not expecting to ever use it.

[-] Nitrate55@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago

Maybe they're preparing for it so it won't be unexpected

[-] Awoo@lemmy.ml 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

After the events that just strengthened it? Absurd. Anything to avoid actually feeding people, addressing the 33% of children currently in poverty or the constantly declining living standards we have I suppose.

EDIT: God this place has gone south since all the redditors came over.

  1. When a coup fails, it strengthens the existing state. It has told everyone that might rebel that there is too much support in the existing state for it to succeed. See Erdogan doing it intentionally in Turkey to strengthen and consolidate his power if you want another example of this.

  2. I live in the UK. This is absolutely a fucking waste of our time and energy. Nobody gives a damn about this when a third of children in the country live in poverty and cost of living is through the roof. It is entirely a distraction because Brexit, austerity and successive neoliberal governments have systematically gutted the country. Anything to distract from the fact half the country keeps going on strike or actually paying people more.

[-] Ropianos@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago

But did the coup really fail? Prigozhin simply called it off after !another! country negotiated a solution. The coup in Turkey failed because of, seemingly, Erdogan being too powerful and the people loving him. In Russia it failed because of Lukashenko intervening and Prigozhin calling it off. Putin does not look strong currently.

[-] Awoo@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

Of course he called it off lmao. He had NO SUPPORT. He was totally isolated.

Compare this to the gang of eight when the communists attempted but failed a coup and you'll see what a real powerful coup attempt looks like. That failed.

Look at who supported and took part in that and compare it to Prigozhin's isolated attempt with absolutely no support, no allies, nothing, while every single other political and military force in the country backed the state.

Prigo grossly overestimated his position. He thought he would get supporters once it was launched, he got absolutely nothing and he backed out at the earliest opportunity with a guarantee of his life being protected in Belarus. This was accepted by state because the alternative would have been a disaster for Russia with thousands of dead in a battle for Rostov and defence of the outskirts of Moscow.

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[-] boredtortoise@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

The whole thing reeks of a fake operation now that Lukashenko was the solution AND Biden making a statement that US isn't involved. Neither states are trustworthy narrators. Who knows

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[-] marmarama@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

The manner in which a coup is stopped makes all the difference. It only enhances the position of the government if the government is seen to deal with the coup attempt promptly and effectively. If the government is not seen to deal with it effectively, then even if the coup is ultimately unsuccessful, it undermines the government.

In this case, Putin was not seen to deal with the coup effectively. Wagner was able to secure the Southern Military District headquarters - the main operational HQ of the war in Ukraine - in Rostov-on-Don with essentially no opposition, then drive most of the way to Moscow with only minor skirmishes along the way. If we believe the widely-disseminated reports, then seven Russian military aircraft were lost to Wagner actions, but only one Wagner truck was lost in return. Putin was not seen or heard from for a long time, and reports surfaced that he had flown to St. Petersburg, and when he did appear, his message was not particularly decisive. When the coup was abandoned, it was done not through force, or by Putin publicly facing down Wagner like Yeltsin did in 1991. It was abandoned due to some back-room deal, brokered by Lukashenko of all people, the details of which have not been made public.

The Russian government's internal security apparatus appears incompetent because it did not consider Wagner a threat, even though Prigozhin had been telegraphing his intentions for days (and probably planning it for months). The Russian military appears weak and overstretched, because it could not protect its operational HQ by force. Putin appears weak because he disappeared at the crucial moments, and large parts of Russia appeared sympathetic to Prigozhin even if they weren't prepared to directly take part. The image of Putin being the supreme ruler in charge of everything looks pretty suspect at this point, and Russians know it because most of the events happened live on Russian state TV.

Putin has a long history of wriggling out of difficult situations, and he might still pull things out of the bag, but I think this is the beginning of the end for him.

[-] Awoo@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

The Russian government’s internal security apparatus appears incompetent because it did not consider Wagner a threat, even though Prigozhin had been telegraphing his intentions for days (and probably planning it for months). The Russian military appears weak and overstretched, because it could not protect its operational HQ by force. Putin appears weak because he disappeared at the crucial moments, and large parts of Russia appeared sympathetic to Prigozhin even if they weren’t prepared to directly take part. The image of Putin being the supreme ruler in charge of everything looks pretty suspect at this point, and Russians know it because most of the events happened live on Russian state TV.

This is all "appears" "appears" "appears". You are hung up on appearances. You seem to think that if they just appear a certain way to people then that will magically change the balances of factional power in the country.

Liberals have this bizarre idea about where power comes from. You all seem to believe that the population of the country has power, that if the government simply appears weak then it will magically result in the population doing.... Something... And then the government will be overthrown and the war will be won!

Power is derived by those in hierarchical positions in a country to command various things within their positions to occur. And when enough people all align alongside one another and command things to happen together, if the related organisations follow those commands, they hold power.

I acknowledge in my other comments that this is embarrassing (which is quite a similar interpretation to you saying it hurts appearances). But the bottom line is how it affects power in the country. What factions exist and who those factions are aligning themselves behind.

This attempt did not result in anything like a weakening of the state or Putin. It consolidated all the sources of power in the country behind Putin, into statements of support and actions that back it up.

Putin has a long history of wriggling out of difficult situations, and he might still pull things out of the bag, but I think this is the beginning of the end for him.

By what mechanism?

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So, the two conflicting armies of Russia shooting at each other, the minister of defence not anticipating this although he instigated it, the president running away, both (minister and president) not addressing the nation in a speech for 3 days after the incident, and the revolutionary leaving on his own account without suffering any substantial losses?

The Russian army bombarded Wagner camps, starting the whole affair, Wagner shot down helicopters of the Russian army during the march. Do you think that will strengthen the ties between Wagner troops and the Russian army to cooperate better in the future? Wagner didn't face any notable resistance the first cities they passed through, and that is a show of strength for Putin? Yeah, no. I don't think that makes much sense, sorry.

Putin will have to go full berserker mode now to portrait some strength, make an example of the mayors of those cities, axe the minster of defence for being obviously incompetent here, and arrange a polonium-tea or something for Prigozhin. And while this might help him save his face as strong leader, it will probably lead to more resistance from others.

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[-] DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org 26 points 1 year ago
[-] fossilesque@mander.xyz 6 points 1 year ago

The anticipatory poop challenge part deux.

[-] toomanyjoints69@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 year ago

My grandpa was Ukrainian but considered himself Russian and worshipped Putin. I really wonder how this would have affected him. I honestly am partly glad he isn't alive. It would really shake him.

He thought of Putin as the person who saved Russians from the fall of the USSR. Putin has done a lot lately to undermine the untarnishable image he had with certain kinds of people.

I really miss my grandpa now. He introduced me to a lot of new concepts and though his ideas were wrong they weren't out dated or stupid.

I never would have done the things I've done if not for my grandpa and how his ideas shaped me.

[-] Stalins_Spoon@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 year ago

Pravda really fell off

[-] damnYouSun@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Plan for a possible possible eventuality? That'll be a first.

I assume there was a plan that Cameron got rid of because reasons and now they can't find the PDF so they'll have to do it again.

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[-] boredtortoise@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Unexpected? I thought everyone was already expecting

[-] Techpriest@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Regardless of the article, using the term "unexpected" is kind of naive at this point.

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[-] blackbrook@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

I sincerely do not understand why...

Maybe it's your attitude and insulting manner? None of your arguments required your comments about "liberals". Given those, it's disingenuous to attribute the downvotes to your "facts".

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this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2023
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