Misconceptions About Immutable Distributions : linux

[-] Infiltrated_ad8271@kbin.social 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

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[-] Guenther_Amanita@feddit.de 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Fedora is, at least in theory, 100% community maintained and owned.
Red Hat sponsors this project (developers and money), in the hopes, that most of it gets upstreamed to RHEL, acting as a "testing ground".

It happened often, and will happen again many times, that the Fedora team decides against interests of RH.

It's a great symbiosis: we, as a community, get an extremely well maintained and professional distro, and RH gets feedback.

Also, side note, the "advertisement" of the RH-ecosystem works. If it weren't because of CasaOS (the web interface and docker management), I would use Almalinux (RHEL clone) instead of Debian, since I'm just used to Fedora and feel more confident in it.

[-] anothermember@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

It's debatable at best.

[-] taanegl@beehaw.org 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Been using Silverblue for a couple of years and dipped over to NixOS for a project.

I'm all giddy for immutable systems to take over, because it is truly the safest way a user can run a system. The added bonus being system rollback is built-in by default and not some secondary service.

[-] Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago

I'm helping a friend out with his laptop from time to time. They've used Linux Mint XFCE for many years and it's set to auto update. Now I got asked to help since the system stopped auto updating with an error message every boot. Seems like an issue with dpkg but I didn't have time so I don't know how to.fix it yet.

Another device is running Fedora Silverblue for a year or two and the only issue was an update failing because of some dependencie issue. But simply removing all overlayed packages and installing them again fixed it in no time.

I've also been using NixOS for a few months on my pc, laptop and server and it's great. Image based OS aren't flexible enough for my liking but are great for low maintenance setups.

[-] taanegl@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

They aren't meant to be "flexible". Immutable means it's static, read only. You replace one image with another.

In the case of Silverblue you install using overlays, like Flatpak or toolbox/podman.

With NixOS you do get images, but in the form of clojures. BUT it also handles environments on a fundamental level, so you don't need to reboot to install new system applications or services.

Have you considered Vanilla OS? There's also uBlue, but I have hopes for Vanilla because it is user-firsf distro, whereas uBlue is more an off-shoot of Silverblue meant for users, but Ruth and same issues as with Silverblue.

Vanilla 2.0 is coming up soon and it seems like a great alternative for people with little to no know-how, or people who don't want to mess around and find out.

[-] Chewy7324@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago

Immutable can be flexible, just like NixOS is with nix shell and other features I don't yet know about.

Containers are great but rootless has issues with programs that need capabilties like CAP_NET_RAW, so I also need rootful containers. That's annoying and is an advantage with nix shell.

I'm not a fan of A/B root, which I believe VanillaOS uses. Also an advantage of NixOS is it's big repo.. On Fedora I had to package some programs myself in copr (tried out a less well-known wayland compositor) On NixOS I had to too, but it's far simpler without the need to build on someone else's infrastructure.

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[-] gecked@lemmy.sdf.org 17 points 1 year ago

I've used Fedora kinoite for at least a year now, it's pretty good

[-] code@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago

I was just looking at that today. Im in my search to leave ubuntu after 10 years

[-] Lazorne@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I run Bazzite on my Desktop now, works great for gaming.

[-] Hairy_MacBoon@monero.town 4 points 1 year ago

You can try fedora. The workstation if you love GNOME, otherwise the KDE spin.

[-] gecked@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 1 year ago

Silver blue and Kinoite are the same thing but immutable.

[-] code@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago

Do you game on it?

[-] gecked@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago

Yes.

[+] mintycactus@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

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[-] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 10 points 1 year ago

Always love TheEvilSkeleton's takes, it feels like I'm reading my own experiences and opinions
(yes, I am saying they're literally me, frfr)

[-] TCB13@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

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[-] Guenther_Amanita@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Did you even read the article? You definitely should!
I did, and especially the "flexibility"-argument should change your mind.
Just look at NixOS for example. It's just as configurable as Arch (from what I've read), but immutable. And it's also not more complicated, just different.

Immutable OSs only restrict you as much as you want them to be.

Also, the underlying technologies (like OSTree, nix-config, A/B-Root, and so on) aren't proprietary.
Just look at uBlue, they've utilized OSTree to share system configs.

While some things really just aren't possible anymore or require workarounds, it opened the door for many, way more interesting routes.

Also, you don't need to be angry.
Nobody will take anything away from you. Mutable distros will still persist for many many years, maybe forever?

We should be exited what the future brings!

[-] superguy@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Yeah, it's a big reason why I'm never in a hurry to adopt 'the next big thing' until it's proven to be the next big thing or I have an immediate use for it.

No point in bogging myself down in theory when practicality works just fine.

[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Take a look at serpent os. It aims to provide a lot of the same benefits without being locked down

[-] sounddrill@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

That kinda reminds me of android xD

Read only system with partitions for data and more

[+] velox_vulnus@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

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[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Also looking forward to serpent OS's moss

[-] nekothegamer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Guix is based on Nix, nothing is gonna change at all

[-] Laser@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago

It's "inspired" by Nix, but they're otherwise not related in any way.

[-] nekothegamer@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

didn't the website say that it's based on Nix though? i remember it from that

[-] Laser@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

You're actually right that it seems to use parts of it:

It uses low-level mechanisms from the Nix package manager, but packages are defined as native Guile modules, using extensions to the Scheme language—which makes it nicely hackable.

As such, the packages look largely different:

(define-public hello
  (package
   (name "hello")
   (version "2.10")
   (source (origin
            (method url-fetch)
            (uri (string-append "mirror://gnu/hello/hello-" version
                                ".tar.gz"))
            (sha256
             (base32
              "0ssi1wpaf7plaswqqjwigppsg5fyh99vdlb9kzl7c9lng89ndq1i"))))
   (build-system gnu-build-system)
   (synopsis "Hello, GNU world: An example GNU package")
   (description
    "GNU Hello prints the message \"Hello, world!\" and then exits.  It
 serves as an example of standard GNU coding practices.  As such, it supports
 command-line arguments, multiple languages, and so on.")
   (home-page "https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/")
   (license gpl3+)))

vs

{ callPackage
, lib
, stdenv
, fetchurl
, nixos
, testers
, hello
}:

stdenv.mkDerivation (finalAttrs: {
  pname = "hello";
  version = "2.12.1";

  src = fetchurl {
    url = "mirror://gnu/hello/hello-${finalAttrs.version}.tar.gz";
    sha256 = "sha256-jZkUKv2SV28wsM18tCqNxoCZmLxdYH2Idh9RLibH2yA=";
  };

[...]

  meta = with lib; {
    description = "A program that produces a familiar, friendly greeting";
    longDescription = ''
      GNU Hello is a program that prints "Hello, world!" when you run it.
      It is fully customizable.
    '';
    homepage = "https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/manual/";
    changelog = "https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/hello.git/plain/NEWS?h=v${finalAttrs.version}";
    license = licenses.gpl3Plus;
    maintainers = [ maintainers.eelco ];
    mainProgram = "hello"; 
    platforms = platforms.all;
  };
})

Also note that NixOS' repository is one of the biggest among all distributions while Guix System only hosts free software.

[-] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago

silverblue has irritated me to no end, still need to try nix

[-] Guenther_Amanita@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

Why? Can you elaborate further?
Have you tried uBlue, a custom imaging system for Silverblue?

Did the non-immutable Fedora irritate you too?

[-] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 year ago

regular fedora isn't bad, but I find that silverblue kept getting in my way when in trying to do things. I'm not the biggest fan of regular Fedora don't get me wrong. but it does a lot of things right.

but well in the end I'm just not the biggest fan of any computer system. I just find arch the most tolerable for not getting in my way. I'm actually really looking forward to trying nixOS since I heard it has a lot of flexibility.

[-] Guenther_Amanita@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Well, if you like Arch and NixOS the most, I think you're a tinkerer/ someone, who likes his OS in one definitive way.
That's totally fine, I love that!

But Silverblue is, I think, more catered towards people who love reliability and prefer it over customization.
I, for example, find SB pretty much perfect how it is.

... well, actually, not 100%. I use uBlue (main), which is basically a modified image of the Vanilla SB with some minor QOL-tweaks, like a few exchanged apps, automatic updates, and so on.
You can also create your own images with this project, with effects similar to Nix.
But if you want your own, individual, config, Nix is just better.

I'm really excited what immutable distros will bring in the future. I follow them (Nix, SB, VanillaOS, etc.) closely and think, that immutability will be the future of Linux, even if that's a trope.

We already containerized everything and never touched the base OS on servers too for decades now, why not on desktop too?
That's the main advantage of Linux, and we should use that.

[-] drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago

Ill try and give ublue a go, One of the main issues I generally have with multiple operating systems is that I'm looking for something with a good out of box user experience for the general user. So far, I find that nobara actually gets the closest to this, so it's what I've been recommending. But if ublue is nice and simple and good enough, I might recommend that instead.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago

I will personally never use a immutable distro

[-] Secret300@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

Why not?

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

Overly complicated and burdensome. I just use distrobox for anything that is going to pull in a bunch of dependencies

[-] superguy@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Immutability has always struck me as a fad.

Aside from declaring variables as FINAL or whatever because I know they won't be changed, the mere idea of using it as a default just seems unnecessarily restrictive to me.

It feels like people who bog themselves down in theory to solve their problems instead of practicality think immutability is a godsend.

For everyone else, it doesn't really matter at best or is an inconvenience at worst.

[-] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

Do you mean in programming? Because this is talking about immutable Linux distributions.

[-] Potatofish@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

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[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Might be down, try again later

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