356
Netanyahu's response: "Why are 86% of Israelis anti-Semitic?"
Tankies: of course the western media would never cover criticism of Israel.
this is a good one for. a meme.
Hamas existing is the Israeli government's fault
And how do you figure that? Israel withdrew from Gaza while it was still under the PA as an attempt to work at peace. The plan was to do the same in the west bank next. Plan goes through. Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood without any political authority up to that point. Prior it was formed because they were against any peace accords that were occuring at the time. But after Israel withdrew, they almost immediately had an election in which Hamas was given power. And they stuck to their promise of continuing to use violence in order to obtain a state instead of working as part of the peace process. This is when the blockade began.
So are you just saying that due to the fact that Israel exists that Hamas exists? Even that is probably not true. The Muslim brotherhood has a long history prior to Hamas in that region. It is highly likely that even if the whole place had become the state of Palestine, then the same people would do the same shit as they did in Egypt.
So how is it that Hamas existing is the fault of Israel?
Direct support: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
And indirectly by sabotaging Hamas’s main rival the PLO. Most notably by the (alleged) assassination Yasser Arafat: https://www.arabnews.com/news/478041 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/06/yasser-arafat-poisoned-polonium-tests-scientists
Ok the first one is definitely a hit piece, but I agree with it in general. I'm sure that Bibi and his friends decided to negotiate with Hamas because it put the full peace talks on hold. But it is ignoring that it allowed for them to work for better wages and get necessary supplies in return for a more peaceful relationship. And had they completely blocked things they'd be further criticized for that. I don't like Bibi or Likud. Don't agree with several of their platforms or conclusions they have reached. That being said, I think it would be unfair not to discuss those conclusions. They have concluded that a full Palestinian state would be more like the situation with Gaza than with the west bank. In fact, before he was PM Bibi said the following concerning the disengagement from Gaza
Only we in the Knesset are able to stop this evil. Everything that the Knesset has decided, it is also capable of changing. I am calling on all those who grasp the danger: Gather strength and do the right thing. I don't know if the entire move can be stopped, but it still might be stopped in its initial stages. [Don't] give [the Palestinians] guns, don't give them rockets, don't give them a sea port, and don't give them a huge base for terror.
And it became exactly that all while he wasn't in charge.
They do not believe Palestine will be peaceful if they get full statehood, but they will be a sovereign territory which will complicate matters even more. I disagree with this conclusion, but it isn't nearly as nefarious as you're implying.
The second thing just belongs in the same realm as other conspiracy theories. Neither Palestine or Israel argue he was assassinated. France, where he was treated, state he wasn't assassinated. At most a swiss group says maybe it happened. The funny thing is, the theory is that he was assassinated because he stood in the way of peace and they wanted a new guy to negotiate with after camp David (which is why they negotiated with Abbas in 02-03).
Hamas is fueled by the trauma of orphans and widows.
Perhaps they are further fueled by orphans and widows. But that doesn't mean they exist due to Israel. The Muslim brotherhood has offshoots in multiple countries in the region and has existed since 1928.
So how is it Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, existing is the fault of Israel? You'd have a much more sound argument blaming the British. Whose control of Egypt of Mandate Palestine led to a lot of this shit. What you haven't done is made any effort to support your hyperbolic claim.
More than one thing can be blamed.
Israel fed Hamas, that's still their fault and they are to blame.
By your argument only the men who established slavery first are to blame, not the ones who continue or exacerbate it which Israel has done both of
You said it exists because of Israel. That is just untrue. Has Israel done things that exacerbated the problem? Definitely. But that is miles away from what you're saying. And worse for what you're implying.
it exists because Israel sustains it what you're saying is ignorant
Again, I've pointed out that the parent organization has existed since 1928 and has branches in multiple countries of the region. Not to mention the ongoing support from Lebanon and Iran for Hamas in particular. So even if Israel ceased to exist Hamas is likely to exist. Even if Israel never existed, whatever group was in control of that area, would still likely be dealing with an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood.
I actually know the history of the organization. Yet I am ignorant. I feel like I'm probably correcting someone who has likely never lived in a world with the twin towers.
You keep talking and while what you say is true it is ignorant because you are choosing to overlook a piece of the puzzle.
Israel kills Palestinians. That feeds Hamas and nothing you have said or are saying takes away from that point.
This whole event happened because of Israel's behavior. That's why we are talking about it.
Everything you're saying is denying that truth that everyone else understands. Nothing you said removed that fact or made it less important. Israel caused this we all understand that, why can't you?
Iran causes it sure, so did Israel. WWII and WWI caused this, but so did Israel. The Roman Empire, Alexander the Great, Darius the Great caused this but so did Israel.
Do you understand why you're ignorant now? You should understand how Israel caused this. We all understand what you're saying but Israel is the most immediate direct cause of this bullshit and is the actor attacking Palestinians.
On multiple occasions the Palestinian governments could have formed an internationally recognized state. At the camp David accords with Clinton, 98% of the land they asked for. Lots of money. But they stopped the negotiations.
And Hamas was put into power due to the promise of using violence to get rid of Israel after the PA said it would renounce violence.
No. You're wrong and disgusting. The attack is on the attackers. They chose to attack. They did have other options. You can debate if the restrictions Israel has put on Gaza has made the peace process worse and has made the lives of Palestinians worse. That's fine. But Hamas launched this attack. A group put in to power by the Palestinian people. And this was their choice. And now thousands are dead as a result. And I am fearful of the long term consequences for both sides.
You can debate if the restrictions Israel has put on Gaza has made the peace process worse and has made the lives of Palestinians worse. That's fine.
There is no debate it just has. 100%.
Also way to just softly admit exactly what I'm fucking saying. You had to be dragged to the point then you gently admit it.
My god some people
From the beginning I've said only that Hamas doesn't exist merely because of Israel.
And it isn't 100%. Your mind is apparently to narrow to see other possibilities. Israel could've had no restrictions post 2005 and they could've been more violent. Obtained more weapons. Blown up more buses and civilians. Fired more rockets. Hell, let's take it further. They could've agreed to everything the Palestinians wanted in negotiations. And it could've resulted in a country that immediately declares war on them with trade support from the surrounding countries that had attacked Israel on multiple occasions. Or even further, as I've stated multiple times, the Muslim brotherhood has offshoots all throughout the region and is known to be militaristic and problematic in almost all of those countries.
You think I somehow agreed with you? You are just a naive fool. This attack happened because Hamas perpetrated it. No more. No less. And as long terrorism is their method of negotiation, they will never know peace. In fact, they will likely only be weakening their positions in any peace process. Because now, I guarantee any agreement for sovereignty will be contingent on no attacks as a basic starting point. And any act that violates it would make the agreement null and void.
Israel exists and will continue to do so. Hamas, on the other hand, would not be the first terrorist organization to be dismantled and made inconsequential or non-existent. Palestinians have a right to a safe and secure life. Perhaps if Hamas is wiped out, negotiations will start again.
The back-forth here reminds me of The Resistance of WW2. That movement was basically in every European nation that resisted German occupation/expansion. Those nations, by necessity, coalesced into one movement because Germany was the aggressor. The moment WW2 ended, so too ended the various resistance movements as there was nothing left to resist.
Got it. So there should be one pan Arab state and Israel should cease to exist as well. And when that happens, what you're saying, is that all will be well in the region?
Has Germany ceased to exist? Are their WW2 adversaries oppressing them to this day? Are they confined to an ever-smaller part of their own country? On the contrary, they tore down the physical & ideological walls dividing their country & were welcomed into a union with freedom of movement.
So a one state solution?
A union where all states keep their independence, but work together. The kind of union the world could be one day, in a future far away.
I answered you. Why did you not respond?
So then every country that exiled and mass murdered Jewish people is to blame. Because Israel exists because of that.
I also wonder why no one addresses personal responsibility anymore. When people talk about Nazi Germany it's all "every individual who didn't actively go against the Nazi is one". Why isn't the same said about Hamas and the Palestinians?
No, the Israeli government literally opposed the alternative Palestine parties which wanted peace and intentionally created space for Hamas. This is the personal responsibility specifically of Bibi Netanyahu himself, and of those who supported him.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
In addition, the median palestinian was 1 years old when Hamas was elected and around 50% are under 18. Personal responsibility for who?
So you also feel like the soldiers during Nazi reign aren't responsible when they didn't vote the Nazi party?
Excusing the atrocities Hamas committed and Palestinians and pro-Palestinian protesters are celebrating in countries all over the world, all with an increase in anti-semitic attitudes in public and schools, I see on Lemmy at well. It's a "They made me do it!" excuse that's just disgusting to see. I can't believe so many people forget their supposed tolerance when Jewish people are killed or exiled. And that's a constant throughout history.
You have people on Lemmy with dozens of upvotes openly showing they do not care one bit for everyone who isn't Palestinian. They advocate for Jews to be at least exiled again, it's disheartening.
Nobody here was excusing atrocities, but you're putting blame on people who are helpless and not just the enablers and supporters.
Nobody made Hamas do it, but on the other hand the Israeli government absolutely wants an enemy and therefore supported their growth, so BOTH sides are at fault and responsible for war crimes as they're both killing innocents including children in brutal ways. Anybody supporting either government is wrong, anybody supporting either attack is wrong, it is just the innocent civilians on both sides who should be supported.
You're attacking the wrong people and the wrong things for the wrong reasons. Look at why the conflict exists in the first place and fight the reasons for why it continues instead.
People here are excusing atrocities all the time. "Israel made them do it and Israelis are colonizers who should just leave", "Palestinians are not Hamas, it's actually Israel who created Hamas" is the common theme of the supporters here.
A reason for the conflict regularly ignored by people on Lemmy is that Hamas and many Palestinians and many other Muslim groups are anti-semitic. They also ignore that the people in Israel aren't colonizers or invaders.
Most Palestinians have no interest in sharing the place with Israelis because most of Israelis are Jews. They are celebrating the violence because of it. And they certainly won't stop killing and attacking if Israel would stop doing it.
If you read up about it, and not only the one-sided Palestinian blogs and propaganda, you can easily see that Palestinians aren't better than Israelis. Actually they are worse since Israel tried to allow Palestinians in their country as citizens with voting rights etc. multiple times, something a Palestine would certainly not. But since Palestinians were the side that lost and got victimised and now oppressed, people jump to ignore the aspects they find uncomfortable for their headcanon.
They are ignoring these and other historic and current dynamics because otherwise Palestinians would be less perfect victims.
It would make the situation more complicated than a black and white issue. And people hate that. Almost like they can only support Palestinians when Israelis are evil.
I see you haven't read about the history of how the Israeli government deliberately choose to create that situation bet deliberate cruelty and by undermining the party which wanted peace
The government of Israel has literally helped fund Hamas to keep Palestinian people divided, they have admitted as much. Being against a government like that, that has committed atrocities for decades, and supporting the victims of these atrocities, the Palestinian people, is not antisemitism. I support the Jewish people, I have kindness and love for people of all sorts, and think that the slaughter of thousands of innocent people in their homes in response to a terror attack is wrong.
no, but if De Gaulle literally acted to strengthen and elevate Nazis back in the late 20s then he would also be responsible for Nazis, and let's also not forget that most of the people in Gaza aren't part of Hamas, but the civilian populace are the ones Israel is targeting, because random apartment blocks aren't the tunnel bunkers of Hamas
I wonder if they think it's just the intelligence failure, or the enabling and supporting of Hamas that they did in order to sabotage the two state solution by pitting them against Fatah and the PA?
Both. People would do well to read Hareetz, Israel's newspaper of record, which is also available in English.
It's hard to accuse it of being anti-semitic. Reading Israeli perspectives, also demolishes the argument that all Israelis don't care about Palestinian suffering or unconditionally support what comes next.
These are some of the opinion pieces they have on their site now:
This:
Or this:
Thanks, that was a very good read. It would be interesting to know how many people in Israel share these views, because from far away it seems like everyone is onboard with causing even more suffering and bloodshed as an act of revenge.
Thank you for sharing, it is appreciated
I'm curious, do they have an arabic language edition too? I feel like that could be a good bridge building tool if so.
He's been so focused on destroying their supreme court and fighting his own people he forgot about the enemy at his gates
he didnt forget about the enemy at his gates, hes been extremely busy making said enemy bigger and angrier
And ignoring warnings from Egypt that Hamas was planning a major attack.
It's almost like he wanted an excuse to do this thing he's been wanting to do!
this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
356 points (100.0% liked)
News
23305 readers
3212 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS