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this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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And how do you figure that? Israel withdrew from Gaza while it was still under the PA as an attempt to work at peace. The plan was to do the same in the west bank next. Plan goes through. Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood without any political authority up to that point. Prior it was formed because they were against any peace accords that were occuring at the time. But after Israel withdrew, they almost immediately had an election in which Hamas was given power. And they stuck to their promise of continuing to use violence in order to obtain a state instead of working as part of the peace process. This is when the blockade began.
So are you just saying that due to the fact that Israel exists that Hamas exists? Even that is probably not true. The Muslim brotherhood has a long history prior to Hamas in that region. It is highly likely that even if the whole place had become the state of Palestine, then the same people would do the same shit as they did in Egypt.
So how is it that Hamas existing is the fault of Israel?
Direct support: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
And indirectly by sabotaging Hamas’s main rival the PLO. Most notably by the (alleged) assassination Yasser Arafat: https://www.arabnews.com/news/478041 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/06/yasser-arafat-poisoned-polonium-tests-scientists
Ok the first one is definitely a hit piece, but I agree with it in general. I'm sure that Bibi and his friends decided to negotiate with Hamas because it put the full peace talks on hold. But it is ignoring that it allowed for them to work for better wages and get necessary supplies in return for a more peaceful relationship. And had they completely blocked things they'd be further criticized for that. I don't like Bibi or Likud. Don't agree with several of their platforms or conclusions they have reached. That being said, I think it would be unfair not to discuss those conclusions. They have concluded that a full Palestinian state would be more like the situation with Gaza than with the west bank. In fact, before he was PM Bibi said the following concerning the disengagement from Gaza
And it became exactly that all while he wasn't in charge.
They do not believe Palestine will be peaceful if they get full statehood, but they will be a sovereign territory which will complicate matters even more. I disagree with this conclusion, but it isn't nearly as nefarious as you're implying.
The second thing just belongs in the same realm as other conspiracy theories. Neither Palestine or Israel argue he was assassinated. France, where he was treated, state he wasn't assassinated. At most a swiss group says maybe it happened. The funny thing is, the theory is that he was assassinated because he stood in the way of peace and they wanted a new guy to negotiate with after camp David (which is why they negotiated with Abbas in 02-03).
Hamas is fueled by the trauma of orphans and widows.
Perhaps they are further fueled by orphans and widows. But that doesn't mean they exist due to Israel. The Muslim brotherhood has offshoots in multiple countries in the region and has existed since 1928.
So how is it Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, existing is the fault of Israel? You'd have a much more sound argument blaming the British. Whose control of Egypt of Mandate Palestine led to a lot of this shit. What you haven't done is made any effort to support your hyperbolic claim.
More than one thing can be blamed.
Israel fed Hamas, that's still their fault and they are to blame.
By your argument only the men who established slavery first are to blame, not the ones who continue or exacerbate it which Israel has done both of
You said it exists because of Israel. That is just untrue. Has Israel done things that exacerbated the problem? Definitely. But that is miles away from what you're saying. And worse for what you're implying.
it exists because Israel sustains it what you're saying is ignorant
Again, I've pointed out that the parent organization has existed since 1928 and has branches in multiple countries of the region. Not to mention the ongoing support from Lebanon and Iran for Hamas in particular. So even if Israel ceased to exist Hamas is likely to exist. Even if Israel never existed, whatever group was in control of that area, would still likely be dealing with an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood.
I actually know the history of the organization. Yet I am ignorant. I feel like I'm probably correcting someone who has likely never lived in a world with the twin towers.
You keep talking and while what you say is true it is ignorant because you are choosing to overlook a piece of the puzzle.
Israel kills Palestinians. That feeds Hamas and nothing you have said or are saying takes away from that point.
This whole event happened because of Israel's behavior. That's why we are talking about it.
Everything you're saying is denying that truth that everyone else understands. Nothing you said removed that fact or made it less important. Israel caused this we all understand that, why can't you?
Iran causes it sure, so did Israel. WWII and WWI caused this, but so did Israel. The Roman Empire, Alexander the Great, Darius the Great caused this but so did Israel.
Do you understand why you're ignorant now? You should understand how Israel caused this. We all understand what you're saying but Israel is the most immediate direct cause of this bullshit and is the actor attacking Palestinians.
On multiple occasions the Palestinian governments could have formed an internationally recognized state. At the camp David accords with Clinton, 98% of the land they asked for. Lots of money. But they stopped the negotiations.
And Hamas was put into power due to the promise of using violence to get rid of Israel after the PA said it would renounce violence.
No. You're wrong and disgusting. The attack is on the attackers. They chose to attack. They did have other options. You can debate if the restrictions Israel has put on Gaza has made the peace process worse and has made the lives of Palestinians worse. That's fine. But Hamas launched this attack. A group put in to power by the Palestinian people. And this was their choice. And now thousands are dead as a result. And I am fearful of the long term consequences for both sides.
There is no debate it just has. 100%.
Also way to just softly admit exactly what I'm fucking saying. You had to be dragged to the point then you gently admit it.
My god some people
From the beginning I've said only that Hamas doesn't exist merely because of Israel.
And it isn't 100%. Your mind is apparently to narrow to see other possibilities. Israel could've had no restrictions post 2005 and they could've been more violent. Obtained more weapons. Blown up more buses and civilians. Fired more rockets. Hell, let's take it further. They could've agreed to everything the Palestinians wanted in negotiations. And it could've resulted in a country that immediately declares war on them with trade support from the surrounding countries that had attacked Israel on multiple occasions. Or even further, as I've stated multiple times, the Muslim brotherhood has offshoots all throughout the region and is known to be militaristic and problematic in almost all of those countries.
You think I somehow agreed with you? You are just a naive fool. This attack happened because Hamas perpetrated it. No more. No less. And as long terrorism is their method of negotiation, they will never know peace. In fact, they will likely only be weakening their positions in any peace process. Because now, I guarantee any agreement for sovereignty will be contingent on no attacks as a basic starting point. And any act that violates it would make the agreement null and void.
Israel exists and will continue to do so. Hamas, on the other hand, would not be the first terrorist organization to be dismantled and made inconsequential or non-existent. Palestinians have a right to a safe and secure life. Perhaps if Hamas is wiped out, negotiations will start again.
The back-forth here reminds me of The Resistance of WW2. That movement was basically in every European nation that resisted German occupation/expansion. Those nations, by necessity, coalesced into one movement because Germany was the aggressor. The moment WW2 ended, so too ended the various resistance movements as there was nothing left to resist.
Got it. So there should be one pan Arab state and Israel should cease to exist as well. And when that happens, what you're saying, is that all will be well in the region?
Has Germany ceased to exist? Are their WW2 adversaries oppressing them to this day? Are they confined to an ever-smaller part of their own country? On the contrary, they tore down the physical & ideological walls dividing their country & were welcomed into a union with freedom of movement.
So a one state solution?
A union where all states keep their independence, but work together. The kind of union the world could be one day, in a future far away.
I answered you. Why did you not respond?