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But also not every idea is worth listening to. Sometimes they are a waste of time, and people who have argued in bad faith in the past don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Whilst this statement has some merit, its problem is that you’re setting up a precursor to a straw-man argument. This is because who defines “challenging ideas”. This allows anyone to come up with a supposed challenging idea, then call anyone who doesn’t engage in it “an intellectual nepobaby”.
For example, should I engage in the “challenging idea” that the world is run by lizard people?
What about the “challenging idea” that throwing bricks in peoples faces will fix their teeth?
You just don't want to engage the challenging idea of defining "challenging ideas."
This is the same "good faith" argument that cultists, religious recruiters, libertarians, and racists use.
You don't have to engage with morally abhorrent arguments out of loyalty to some platonic ideal of intellectualism. You're allowed to tell people to fuck off.
You tell them to fuck off because you engaged with it and found it completely meritless/abhorrent, not because you're above engaging with it. If they present new evidence for lizard people, you should skeptically examine the evidence and tell them to fuck off when it doesn't hold up.
You don't have to engage with them and waste your time debating them, but you absolutely should be open to challenge your own positions.
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For example, should I engage in the “challenging idea” that the world is run by lizard people?
As a counterpoint, you likely have. You're aware of the position, aware of the proposed evidence, and determined the evidence falls short of proof, which means you've engaged with their thinking before rejecting it.
Confirmation bias is an incredibly stubborn human trait (and a near universal one at that). The particular issue this post is engaging with is called attitude polarization: two groups of people diverging more and more in their opinions despite being presented with the same evidence.
Why are humans like this? I think it’s a survival trait that people conform to the opinions of their in-group and are reluctant to let go of opinions that are most central to their world-view. They’ve already invested a lot in both their in-group and their world-view, so rejecting all that is more costly to them than rejecting the truth about some particular fact (that they may not even care about that much).
When you consider that beliefs and openly held opinions have different costs and different benefits depending on which group you belong to, it becomes a lot less obvious that abandoning a position is the right move.
It’s a good counterpoint. In my first example I definitely have thought about it previously.
In my second example it’s clearly stupid so I’m not going to engage with it. I haven’t thought about it previously (I have now !), but I don’t think that makes me an intellectual nepobaby.
But by your own admittance, you did think about it once the question was posed, so no, you're not an intellectual nepobaby.
We have all had past experiences with how hard brick-adjacent substances affect teeth, so it's not discarding it as a knee-jerk reaction. If you went to a dental college, and the professor made the claim before you knew better, I'd assume you'd be interested in finding out how he came to that conclusion, correct?
Yes, you assume correctly. I would be interested in finding out how they came to that conclusion!
I think in a different thread, the question of whether the other person was presenting something in good faith came up. I think my original statement was more geared towards dealing with those types of things. I don’t need to engage with everyone if they’re not willing to engage back.
Yeah, I agree that the attempt to engage is the most important aspect. What actually constitutes "engagement" is up to semantic debate.
I do think that new arguments should be evaluated, even if it's presented in bad faith. I feel that the bad faith nature of the argument is a factor that counts poorly in my evaluation, but it's good to have a solid understanding of the nuance in your stance, even when it comes to the ridiculous.
I get what you’re saying, but you’re kind of setting up a strawman yourself here here. Not every idea deserves endless debate, sure, it’s about the habit of dismissing things as "stupid" without even considering them. Sure, lizard people and bricks fixing teeth are absurd. But those examples are extreme on purpose, and they don’t really address the core of people rejecting ideas out of hand just because they’re unfamiliar or uncomfortable. If an idea is actually bad, it will fall apart under scrutiny. But if the default response is just "that’s dumb," we’re not thinking critically, we’re just avoiding the work, and worse, we are participating in a culture where it's okay to do so. Which is exactly what leads to people getting (and abusing) terrible ideas.
Remedy to stupidity isn't LESS critical thinking.
But those examples are extreme on purpose
Yes they were! And you’re right, we need to allow ourselves to be challenged, to consider ideas outside of our comfort zone, but we also need to able to reject ideas that are not being posited in good faith.
This is the joy of debate, to question statements and receive nuanced answers in reply.
How do you determine what's not in good faith?
I would imagine this would tie to values, but do those become the unquestionable object, then?
That’s a great question and I’m not sure I have a definitive answer. For lack of better description, it would be the vibe I got from them:
- Do I feel like they’re being deliberately argumentative.
- Do I feel like they’re trying to twist my words in an unkind way.
- Are they looking for ways to find offence in what I’ve said.
I assume good faith unless clear evidence indicates otherwise. I try to adopt a more general version of WP:AGF in life.
How do you determine what’s not in good faith?
I personally always assume good faith. I can't read people's minds. On the Internet, I can't even see facial expressions or hear how they're saying it. It's like that Key and Peele text message sketch.
Even with MAGAts and the wave of red that's ever-present online?
When one assumes bad faith, one is assuming guilt. That isn’t fair. I have found it better to assume innocence, to adopt Judge Blackstone’s ratio over Judge Dredd’s.
I think it's fair to assume those when people openly support a movement that visibly takes away the rights of marginalized groups and kills innocent people.
In some discussions, faith, good or bad, doesn’t matter. If a politician says that ducks have three feet, whether they say that in good faith or not, it’s wrong. So it’s still best to assume good faith and logically explain how it is incorrect. To respond to such a statement with an accusation is a fallacy.
The analogy you're providing is fallacious because unlike nonsensical singular statements about ducks (an ethically neutral statement), what we're actually getting is people consistently defending various forms of hate that endangers minorities and marginalized people. They rarely, if ever - and it is my opinion that this almost never occurs - respond to reason. People being purposefully obtuse and heartless within discussions do not really deserve logical vigour or effort. You could try, but it's a waste of time and energy, and it'll just put one in a bad mood.
Oh my gosh, thank you for responding this way 😭
I feel like on Lemmy it's really difficult to ever post anything but total agreement without it immediately becoming an argument. Glad we found common ground!
Stupidly wrong.^[tee hee hee]
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
That's like 95% of humanity
Yep. It's especially cringe when people ignore centuries of philosophical discussion. Often smugly.
Great example is when people refer to Richard Dawkins' books as proof that there is no god. Nothing like a Reddit atheist to make me embarrassed to not believe in god.
I've never witnessed an atheist making such an argument. Usually it's the theists getting hung up on him because they are used to appealing to authority figures and project.
Lucky you?
I don't think it's luck.
It is. Buy a lotto ticket.
I unironically think the braindead atheism online greatly contributed to the rise of Christian nationalism we've been seeing in the past decade...
Isn't it? I mean I haven't read his stuff or otherwise cared that much but I thought that was the point.
I really don't know.
In general I don't quite understand the point of OP. How do you learn without learning?
Good on you for asking! Dawkins doesn’t prove there’s no God; he argues the idea isn’t necessary to explain reality. The burden of proof isn’t on him to disprove an unfalsifiable claim, it’s on those making the claim to provide testable evidence. That’s how critical thinking works.
https://youtu.be/Qf03U04rqGQ?t=301
As for "How do you learn without learning?" you don’t. But a lot of people confuse rote repetition (parroting Dawkins or the Bible) with understanding (grappling with the arguments themselves). One’s memorization; the other’s understanding.
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I've found that I generally don't look down on anyone pretty much ever. I don't get it when someone lacks intellectual curiosity, but I never look down on them for it since it's just not everyone's cup of tea. However, when someone has disdain or actively rejects deeper inquiry, hoo boy, I can't help but suddenly feel a pretty aggressive anger as if they not only choose to be stupid, but are trying to socially pressure everyone else to choose to be stupid. That's just not acceptable.
I watched a video of a guy complaining about something similar and it ended with a really good phrase: don't even bother engaging with non-apple rotators
What are non-apple rotators?
People who can't rotate an apple in their head. In the context of the video - people who don't interact with abstract arguments and think you're talking about specific things or people instead
Aha, I gotcha. That's a pretty apt analogy, I like it. Yeah, it's pretty frustrating talking philosophy with someone and they're all like "it's not that deep, bro", when in reality, it's a hotly contested topic in academic philosophy. So I guess it'd be like "bro, it's just a flat, red surface" when you're trying to talk about how the stem is attached to the core in a way.
I interact with abstract arguments but can't rotate an apple in my head because of aphantasia. I can easily handle the concept of rotating an apple though.
Funny enough, my ability to estimate how three dimensional objects fit into real space is really good despite not being able to visualize it.
This is crazy to me. I would have gone insane as a child if I couldn't have imagined badass scenarios in my head when I was bored.
I drew a lot and made physical things!
Also read a lot, but had concepts and not images. Like a car in a story might remind me of a car I had interacted with even if I couldn't picture it. Like a sports car feels fast and nimble even if I can't picture the curves. Maybe it is rounded or has sharp angles on that model, but I can't picture the actual curves or angles.
Lol, the irony of this being so highly upvoted on Lemmy, of all places.
Intellectual nepobabies? I don't know what that means! These words challenge me, and I want no part of that! Nooooope! I will not think about such things! I mean really! What even is "nepobabies"? Did you mean "muppet babies"? Because they stopped making that show a while ago....
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this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2026
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Showerthoughts
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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.
Here are some examples to inspire your own showerthoughts:
- Both “200” and “160” are 2 minutes in microwave math
- When you’re a kid, you don’t realize you’re also watching your mom and dad grow up.
- More dreams have been destroyed by alarm clocks than anything else
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