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submitted 3 months ago by SenK@lemmy.ca to c/showerthoughts@lemmy.world

Inheriting their worldview from consensus or comfort, never having to earn it through actual thought.

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[-] SpiffyPotato@feddit.uk 57 points 3 months ago

Whilst this statement has some merit, its problem is that you’re setting up a precursor to a straw-man argument. This is because who defines “challenging ideas”. This allows anyone to come up with a supposed challenging idea, then call anyone who doesn’t engage in it “an intellectual nepobaby”.

For example, should I engage in the “challenging idea” that the world is run by lizard people?

What about the “challenging idea” that throwing bricks in peoples faces will fix their teeth?

[-] mycodesucks@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

This is the same "good faith" argument that cultists, religious recruiters, libertarians, and racists use.

You don't have to engage with morally abhorrent arguments out of loyalty to some platonic ideal of intellectualism. You're allowed to tell people to fuck off.

[-] 3abas@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

You tell them to fuck off because you engaged with it and found it completely meritless/abhorrent, not because you're above engaging with it. If they present new evidence for lizard people, you should skeptically examine the evidence and tell them to fuck off when it doesn't hold up.

You don't have to engage with them and waste your time debating them, but you absolutely should be open to challenge your own positions.

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[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I get what you’re saying, but you’re kind of setting up a strawman yourself here here. Not every idea deserves endless debate, sure, it’s about the habit of dismissing things as "stupid" without even considering them. Sure, lizard people and bricks fixing teeth are absurd. But those examples are extreme on purpose, and they don’t really address the core of people rejecting ideas out of hand just because they’re unfamiliar or uncomfortable. If an idea is actually bad, it will fall apart under scrutiny. But if the default response is just "that’s dumb," we’re not thinking critically, we’re just avoiding the work, and worse, we are participating in a culture where it's okay to do so. Which is exactly what leads to people getting (and abusing) terrible ideas.

Remedy to stupidity isn't LESS critical thinking.

[-] SpiffyPotato@feddit.uk 10 points 3 months ago

But those examples are extreme on purpose

Yes they were! And you’re right, we need to allow ourselves to be challenged, to consider ideas outside of our comfort zone, but we also need to able to reject ideas that are not being posited in good faith.

This is the joy of debate, to question statements and receive nuanced answers in reply.

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

How do you determine what's not in good faith?

I would imagine this would tie to values, but do those become the unquestionable object, then?

[-] SpiffyPotato@feddit.uk 8 points 3 months ago

That’s a great question and I’m not sure I have a definitive answer. For lack of better description, it would be the vibe I got from them:

  • Do I feel like they’re being deliberately argumentative.
  • Do I feel like they’re trying to twist my words in an unkind way.
  • Are they looking for ways to find offence in what I’ve said.
[-] lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

How do you determine what’s not in good faith?

I personally always assume good faith. I can't read people's minds. On the Internet, I can't even see facial expressions or hear how they're saying it. It's like that Key and Peele text message sketch.

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[-] clean_anion@programming.dev 2 points 3 months ago

I assume good faith unless clear evidence indicates otherwise. I try to adopt a more general version of WP:AGF in life.

[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 months ago

Oh my gosh, thank you for responding this way 😭

I feel like on Lemmy it's really difficult to ever post anything but total agreement without it immediately becoming an argument. Glad we found common ground!

[-] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago

You just don't want to engage the challenging idea of defining "challenging ideas."

[-] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 months ago

For example, should I engage in the “challenging idea” that the world is run by lizard people?

As a counterpoint, you likely have. You're aware of the position, aware of the proposed evidence, and determined the evidence falls short of proof, which means you've engaged with their thinking before rejecting it.

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Confirmation bias is an incredibly stubborn human trait (and a near universal one at that). The particular issue this post is engaging with is called attitude polarization: two groups of people diverging more and more in their opinions despite being presented with the same evidence.

Why are humans like this? I think it’s a survival trait that people conform to the opinions of their in-group and are reluctant to let go of opinions that are most central to their world-view. They’ve already invested a lot in both their in-group and their world-view, so rejecting all that is more costly to them than rejecting the truth about some particular fact (that they may not even care about that much).

When you consider that beliefs and openly held opinions have different costs and different benefits depending on which group you belong to, it becomes a lot less obvious that abandoning a position is the right move.

[-] SpiffyPotato@feddit.uk 2 points 3 months ago

It’s a good counterpoint. In my first example I definitely have thought about it previously.

In my second example it’s clearly stupid so I’m not going to engage with it. I haven’t thought about it previously (I have now !), but I don’t think that makes me an intellectual nepobaby.

[-] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago

But by your own admittance, you did think about it once the question was posed, so no, you're not an intellectual nepobaby.

We have all had past experiences with how hard brick-adjacent substances affect teeth, so it's not discarding it as a knee-jerk reaction. If you went to a dental college, and the professor made the claim before you knew better, I'd assume you'd be interested in finding out how he came to that conclusion, correct?

[-] SpiffyPotato@feddit.uk 2 points 3 months ago

Yes, you assume correctly. I would be interested in finding out how they came to that conclusion!

I think in a different thread, the question of whether the other person was presenting something in good faith came up. I think my original statement was more geared towards dealing with those types of things. I don’t need to engage with everyone if they’re not willing to engage back.

[-] faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago

Yeah, I agree that the attempt to engage is the most important aspect. What actually constitutes "engagement" is up to semantic debate.

I do think that new arguments should be evaluated, even if it's presented in bad faith. I feel that the bad faith nature of the argument is a factor that counts poorly in my evaluation, but it's good to have a solid understanding of the nuance in your stance, even when it comes to the ridiculous.

[-] trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago

That's like 95% of humanity

[-] Pinetten@pawb.social 18 points 3 months ago

Yep. It's especially cringe when people ignore centuries of philosophical discussion. Often smugly.

Great example is when people refer to Richard Dawkins' books as proof that there is no god. Nothing like a Reddit atheist to make me embarrassed to not believe in god.

[-] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 15 points 3 months ago

I've never witnessed an atheist making such an argument. Usually it's the theists getting hung up on him because they are used to appealing to authority figures and project.

[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 months ago

I unironically think the braindead atheism online greatly contributed to the rise of Christian nationalism we've been seeing in the past decade...

[-] db2@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

Great example is when people refer to Richard Dawkins' books as proof that there is no god

As was said earlier by someone else, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[-] roundup5381@sh.itjust.works 21 points 3 months ago

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

[-] Randelung@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

But also not every idea is worth listening to. Sometimes they are a waste of time, and people who have argued in bad faith in the past don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[-] NoTagBacks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago

I've found that I generally don't look down on anyone pretty much ever. I don't get it when someone lacks intellectual curiosity, but I never look down on them for it since it's just not everyone's cup of tea. However, when someone has disdain or actively rejects deeper inquiry, hoo boy, I can't help but suddenly feel a pretty aggressive anger as if they not only choose to be stupid, but are trying to socially pressure everyone else to choose to be stupid. That's just not acceptable.

[-] real_squids@sopuli.xyz 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I watched a video of a guy complaining about something similar and it ended with a really good phrase: don't even bother engaging with non-apple rotators

[-] NoTagBacks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 3 months ago

What are non-apple rotators?

[-] real_squids@sopuli.xyz 6 points 3 months ago

People who can't rotate an apple in their head. In the context of the video - people who don't interact with abstract arguments and think you're talking about specific things or people instead

[-] NoTagBacks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 months ago

Aha, I gotcha. That's a pretty apt analogy, I like it. Yeah, it's pretty frustrating talking philosophy with someone and they're all like "it's not that deep, bro", when in reality, it's a hotly contested topic in academic philosophy. So I guess it'd be like "bro, it's just a flat, red surface" when you're trying to talk about how the stem is attached to the core in a way.

[-] snooggums@piefed.world 4 points 3 months ago

I interact with abstract arguments but can't rotate an apple in my head because of aphantasia. I can easily handle the concept of rotating an apple though.

Funny enough, my ability to estimate how three dimensional objects fit into real space is really good despite not being able to visualize it.

[-] BladeFederation@piefed.social 3 points 3 months ago

This is crazy to me. I would have gone insane as a child if I couldn't have imagined badass scenarios in my head when I was bored.

[-] snooggums@piefed.world 3 points 3 months ago

I drew a lot and made physical things!

Also read a lot, but had concepts and not images. Like a car in a story might remind me of a car I had interacted with even if I couldn't picture it. Like a sports car feels fast and nimble even if I can't picture the curves. Maybe it is rounded or has sharp angles on that model, but I can't picture the actual curves or angles.

[-] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Intellectual nepobabies? I don't know what that means! These words challenge me, and I want no part of that! Nooooope! I will not think about such things! I mean really! What even is "nepobabies"? Did you mean "muppet babies"? Because they stopped making that show a while ago....

[-] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 3 points 3 months ago

They're called realists and they're everything wrong with society. We need to kill the idea of objective reality and to push everyone to choose their subjective worldview based on their own wants and needs, not society's.

[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago

Wow, that’s… not quite what I meant. The goal isn’t to reject objective reality, it’s to question how we define it and who gets to decide what counts as “real.” Pushing people to explore their own perspectives is one thing, but encouraging pure solipsism just replaces one dogma with another. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater, yeah?

[-] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 1 points 3 months ago

There is no compromising with an ideology that is inherently uncompromising in nature. It's the paradox of tolerance. Realists will never make room for experiences that defy their idea of objective reality. If they did, they wouldn't be realists. That's why in order to create room for everyone's experiences and freedom, we must destroy consensus reality. We need to kill objectivism in order to have a subjective multiverse with free exchange of ideas. Realists violate that social contract.

[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 months ago

If objective reality doesn't exist, then your definition of 'subjective' is just a consensus-based hallucination you inherited from your own comfort. How do you know your 'multiverse' isn't just a realist's cage you haven't recognized yet? Your own argument destroys the premise upon which it rests. Also, what if my subjective experience includes what I would characterize as objective reality? You would be imposing your own definition on to me, again destroying your own premise.

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[-] chux@feddit.org 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Not necessarily. There are discussions in which I dont engage with certain 'challenging ideas' or rather walls of statements that need to be evaluated and put into context. If i know already that this discussion is not important enough for me and the points provided are not promising and novel (for me) enough, aka stupid on first glance, to later invest the time to revisit those ideas, research, evaluate and putting them into context, which no one can do for me, than i may not bother with those points to begin with. Afterall one cant be bothered with all stupid ideas about something that exists. Written forms of auch discussions are there more productive since one can do the research etc. in the moment. Allthough that to takes time.

In short no one has the time to truly interlectually and honestly engage all 'challenging ideas' there are. One must always make a certain preselections, with very shallow engagement.

One might have to smuggle in an '...all [challengin ideas ...]' to make this statement more accurate.

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[-] hakase@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 months ago

Lol, the irony of this being so highly upvoted on Lemmy, of all places.

[-] FishFace@piefed.social 2 points 3 months ago

@mindbleach@sh.itjust.works remind you of anyone?

[-] SenK@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

...no? Help me out?

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood you lol

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this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2026
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