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submitted 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) by bluemoon@piefed.social to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

i'll wager, from an armchair mind you, that this is because decrepeit Scrooges see it as a plus that the people from the regions most affected as "lesser people", while also holding on to money and ensuring states militarize to defend that money from increasingly pissed of people.

so TLDR ig racist old dudes appreciating what fascism does for 'em.

this is just an armchair assessment fron me though. why is fossil fuel still being used?

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[-] Crozekiel@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 day ago

There are so many factors playing into this. Also, I don't want you to think this post is suggesting we should give up on alternatives, because that is not my belief. We need to transition to something, and really we should have started this process much earlier. This is more to illustrate why it is a slow process.

  1. Energy density is unbeatable. Around 100 pounds of gasoline (15-ish gallons) will push most small road cars 300-400 miles. To get close to that range from an electric car you are going to need 1500-2000 lbs of batteries.
  2. Transportability. We have yet to really figure out how to get several thousand kilowatts of electricity from where it is easy to produce to where it is needed without losing a good percentage of it. You can fill a tank with Gasoline and haul it across the planet and lose basically none of it.
  3. Safety. Batteries can be very nasty things if damaged, the fires they can cause are astronomically harder to put out compared to traditional gasoline fires after a nasty car accident. Hydrogen is so much more violent in a fire/explosion than gasoline as well.
  4. Economics. Yes, Oil Companies have a huge grip on massive chunks of the world. MANY countries entire economies would collapse if fossil fuels were removed from the equation. And those countries are powerful, and scared, which is a dangerous combo. They are fighting tooth and nail to maintain their GDP as there is not a good replacement. It could be a civilization crumbling event if all money tied to fossil fuels just stopped in an instant.

Our habits need to drastically change as a society. Fossil Fuels are not the only problem we need to change, as an example, industrial farming is also pretty catastrophically bad for the environment (as we are currently doing it). We need to consume less (both power and stuff), we need to travel less, we need to eat less meat, and we need world governments on board for these changes in a meaningful and peaceful way. Or we need someone to invent a way for us all to survive the problem or reverse it without us changing a damn thing, but that sounds like magic.

[-] Cevilia 7 points 1 day ago

Because the fossil fuel companies are breathtakingly rich and willing to share that wealth with politicians in return for policy decisions that favour fossil fuel companies.

See also "lobbying", "bribery", and "corruption".

[-] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I get why you would say this, but it's an oversimplification to the point of being completely wrong.

Fossil fuels have an absurd energy density. They're just really hard to beat. Modern batteries and liquid hydrogen don't even come close. Pair that with the fact that we've spent a couple hundred years optimising the steam- and internal combustion engines, compared to some decades (in practice) for electric-based stuff, and you start seeing why fossil fuels are so hard to push of the top of the hill.

Until very recently all alternatives were pretty much worse under every conceivable performance metric. There's a reason electric planes are still in the prototype phase. It's just technically really really hard to even get close to jet fuel and combustion engines.

[-] Cevilia 2 points 1 day ago

Completely wrong? Let me test my understanding. You're claiming that fossil fuel companies are not breathtakingly rich and willing to share that wealth with politicians in return for policy decisions that favour fossil fuel companies?

[-] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

That almost seems like a wilful misinterpretation of what I wrote, since I never claimed anything of the sort.

What makes you completely wrong is that you're using the fact that petroleum companies are filthy rich and bribe politicians to hell and back as an explanation for why we're still reliant of fossil fuels. The basic answer to why is that "fossil fuels and combustion engines are pretty damn hard to beat" to the point where we still haven't found a viable alternative for some applications.

[-] MantisToboggon@lemmy.world 36 points 2 days ago

It has a higher energy density than most other substances. I think it's like double lithium ion batteries.

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[-] starlinguk@lemmy.world 22 points 2 days ago

Fun fact: Shell patented tons of alternatives to fossil fuel and then shelved them.

Sauce: worked there.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 2 points 1 day ago

fuck i wanna hear abt 'em

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 5 points 2 days ago

Just so we're clear, that's Royal Dutch Shell industries, of very progressive, social democracy Netherlands, right?

[-] starlinguk@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

They're British now, by the way.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 1 day ago
[-] bryndos@fedia.io 8 points 2 days ago

Cheap , fairly-easy, portable, storable source of energy, and the current supply chains are very high capacity. Lots of well understood methods and machines to use it. An oil tanker on sea or land moves a hell of a lot of energy to wherever people want it.

Population keeps growing. No way are all of those people going to leave that stuff in the ground, if "we" don't take the cheap stuff, "they" will. So it becomes like a race to find and extract it all.

Even if you don't want it personally, someone in your economy or military will be better off for it. Some people will go looking for it - and someone'll get rich if they find it.

[-] fizzle@quokk.au 5 points 2 days ago

Because money obviously, but not the way you seem to think.

For the last 150 years, there's been loads of the stuff more or less lying around. It doesn't require much effort to bring to a usable state, and a cup full can move you, your wife and kids, your dog, and your car to the top of that hill in the distance.

Until very, very recently that's been a pretty unbeatable deal.

Now we're just building out the infrastructure and developing the maintenance skills. We're in the midst of a transition.

[-] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Now that you mention it, why don't we farm whales for oil

[-] deafboy@lemmy.world 2 points 13 hours ago

And now I wish for somebody to include this into their fictional universe. If any proffesional writer reads this, pay attention!

[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 days ago

two big reasons:

  • we don't have replacement energy sources at scale (this is of course party caused by inflated demand eg. data centers, always-on electronics)

  • energy production is heavily subsidized in that so-called external costs are paid by the public instead of the companies

Until we can both reduce demand and increase supply, while also making corporations pay the cost of the pollution they produce, we're stuck with this shit.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 7 points 2 days ago

okay so shut down AI datacenters (reduce demand)

and smuggle in the cheap chinese solar panels just sitting in storage (increase supply)

[-] Eggymatrix@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 days ago
[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 6 points 2 days ago
[-] Eggymatrix@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

I mean, this is the real world not a videogame, how can someone think to "just shut down" an entire industry segment? We are in free market capitalism, and unless they also suggest to "just shift to autochratic communnism" this ain't going to happen.

After the kind of good question such a response threw me off

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 2 points 1 day ago

yeah. i am just burnt out from being online - on & off since the last decade - and am missing critical discussion in my local area. i would grow from dispelling issues with my take or you sharing your take on the topic. mutual antagonism is always detrimental.

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[-] Jayb151@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

This response seems to have a strong misunderstand of how the world actually operates.

Also... Where you think the energy to make "cheap Chinese solar panels" is coming from?

Also also, the fact that you're talking about importing from one specific country makes me think... You're from a Western country where they artificially make these things limited? It's good to ask questions like this, but time to grow up. So some real research and see how you can make a genuine impact.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

i think you underestimate the bubble even scandinavian nations are in right now. do share your resources and know i want to know more

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[-] zxqwas@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

Because it's cheap and easy to produce. Biofuels compete with food and forests. Not sure how much waste products can cover. Either way the biodiesel is about twice the price of the regular stuff here and has a lower tax rate than regular diesel (~43% tax rate)

It has a very high energy density. First Google result approx 10x that of batteries in EVs.

All the infrastructure is already built. EVs are becoming better and better options but the grid needs to be upgraded and the generation capacity increased.

[-] Limonene@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

I believe two reasons: first, political will. Fossil fuel companies are large and entrenched, and have lots of experience lobbying governments. They block things like carbon taxes.

Second, a strange sort of game theory where each player (each country) thinks "My individual contributions to greenhouse gasses are just a small part of the total. They won't cause global catastrophe. Just an incremental increase in the existing catastrophe. The incremental harm won't fall directly on me; it will be divided among many countries. If continuing to use fossil fuels provides some small economic advantage, it outweighs the portion of the harms that will land on me. As for the harms I experience from other countries' carbon emissions, there's nothing I can do to prevent them."

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[-] bastion@feddit.nl 4 points 2 days ago

Because we don't need to generate the energy, therefore it's got a cost advantage, even though the true cost of it is that it contributes massively to climate problems.

That is: batteries must be charged, the plants to make biofuels must absorb solar energy for at least half a year to have energy present, the solar panels to power the grid must sit and soak up that energy, generators must be physically turned for hydro.

the only things that have pre-existing energy that we just "tap for free" are oil, coal, natural gas, and nuclear.

the best track for us to go on is to go for 3rd or 4th gen nuclear, and sodium ion batteries, imo. Solar is a close second. Hydro would be up there, but it's too disruptive ecologically.

[-] Talos@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 days ago

These are misconceptions, or rather a bit out of date.

Wind and solar are much cheaper than fossil fuels now. Significantly cheaper.

And is an old school investment bank presenting this information.

Even for running a car, using solar-produced electricity is a fraction of the cost of gasoline; gas is 3-5x more expensive.

And nuclear is not anywhere near as cheap as wind or solar unfortunately, although we haven’t put much effort into making it more efficient for a few decades now so that might change.

[-] bastion@feddit.nl 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Solar is, on a consumer level, possibly more cheap than gas for a car now, in many areas. But more is actually done with oil->gasoline framework, including plastics and chemicals which would all need to be developed into new processes. I don't disagree that we need to replace these, but oil is literally free energy, and it's a substance with a lot of uses.

And that fact is one of the big reasons that oil is so hard to compete with - it is literally energy we do not have to generate. All other forms of energy we must actually capture the natural energy flow. In oil, it has already been captured - we're burning biomatter from years long gone. That's what makes it hard to compete with. Although, the competition is getting better, and that's good.

as far as the costs for a vehicle go - I actually live on solar, with a very cost effective system at $25k, 14kw.

If I had an electric car and drove 15k miles per year, I'd need up that system by 11kw at least. That's adding about $20k to that system.

Where I am, gas is cheaper tha than $3/gallon, but let's say it's $3/gallon.

at 30mpg gasoline, that's about $1500. At 30mpge, with my lower-than-average system costs, that's $2000. ..and that's not including maintenance and repair to that system.

Sure, there are a ton of other factors to take into account, both for and against. But electric is no clear winner from a personal-benefit perspective - particularly when you take cold weather into account for lithium batteries, and the inability to resolve an out-of-fuel situation easily. Sure, there are services. ..maybe. depending where you are. But, it's far from ideal for a lot of people.

anyways - no, nuclear is definitely not as cheap, but it provides base load power, which is critical. only alternatives there are fossil fuels, geothermal, and hydro. But the main draw for 3rd and 4th gen nuclear is how low-impact and environmentally friendly it can be, while still providing base load power.

now, if Sodium ion batteries live up to their promise of cycle longevity, then providing base load could be done by lots and lots of storage. maybe not cost effectively, yet, but it could, maybe.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

fossil isn't free if the profit is considered in climate not just currency. so fossil is like a no-go-zone until we/later generationd dip back down

[-] bastion@feddit.nl 1 points 1 day ago

yes. this is why we're all here discussing alternative energy and fossil fuels. But ignoring you're enemies' strengths is not exactly the smoothest move.

[-] swordgeek@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 days ago
[-] Strider@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago
[-] AmidFuror@fedia.io 4 points 2 days ago

The mix of actual reasonable answers and "everyone here despises capitalism, so I'll just blame it on conspiracies involving the rich" answers is quite interesting.

The simplest answer is that almost everyone is motivated by what they can get out of a thing, and petroleum is cheaper than the alternatives. The infrastructure is already in place, and the downsides (including climate change) are paid for by everyone, not just the producers and biggest consumers.

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[-] tate@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 2 days ago
[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

sorry. there's youngsters indulging in burning fossil fuel rn too

[-] tate@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 day ago

More importantly, the evil people running the petroleum industry are in fact old, but that is not why they are evil.

Evil people in positions of power tend to be old because a) it takes time to accumulate power, and b) folks with power tend to keep it till they're dead. It's just statistics - it doesn't mean oldness causes evil.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago

that's commonly understood, i hope

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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2025
49 points (100.0% liked)

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