They're taking the chickens to Isengard?
~I~ ~hope~ ~some~ ~German~ ~speakers~ ~enjoyed~ ~that~ ~pun.~
Ich ess' lieber keine Orceier.
Und die Scwänze konnen sie sich auch behalten.
Haben Orcs 'leicht Plfaumen?
One egg to rule them all, one egg to find them, One egg to bring them all and in the omelette bind them.
Chickens are very poorly treated in some farms. I'd prefer not to get into details, it's very NSFW.
I think the way in which the chicken is raised ~~doesn't affect vegans~~ doesn't change the vegans stance :p
But, I think it's fair to say that some methods of eating animals are less cruel than others. It's better to get people to eat less cruel than not and better to eat less meat than not. Eating from local farms is almost always better.
You are correct that it doesn't change my stance, and I wouldn't use animal products (e.g. eggs or wool are two big ones people bring up a lot) even if I know for a fact that the animal is treated well and isn't suffering at all.
But also - I agree with you. Buying cheap wool from Amazon vs getting wool from your buddy that has some alpacas as pets is extremely different. Same for Walmart eggs (even free range ones - I have seen free range chicken farms, knew someone who treated their chickens "well" by industry standards and it was.... not great) vs getting them from the local guy down the street who has a hens that their kids play in the yard with.
I personally will never eat even those animal products because for me being consistent in every scenario is a lot easier, and I don't feel the need to justify why eating animal products is ok in certain circumstances - I just don't do it. And I feel like this is a better stance than still finding ways to still consume, but I would be much, much happier if everyone who consumed animal products only did so through such means. That would require that we as a society produce orders of magnitude less animal products, though. It's not normal or healthy for humans to consume pounds of meat every day, and we produce even more than we consume, leading to excess waste. Basically the whole system is garbage and switching to "kind" animal products would be just as, if not more, difficult than just going vegan as a society.
But yes, I would accept any ally in trying to reduce "Big Ag" or whatever people call it these days. We can argue about the most optimal way to sustain a society when we have fixed the things we can pretty much all agree are problems.
Thanks for posting that! I was gonna say most of the vegans and vegetarians I know say similar to what you said. They have a few different reasons for why they're vegan or vegetarian, but they all tend to agree that it's generally better to just... Eat less meat. Not even not eat meat, but just eat less of it. That's pretty easy to do, honestly, so it's easy to give a shot.
Heck, (and I'm not sure if I agree with this), I once heard someone say they were a vegetarian that occasionally eats meat. It's a neat way to think of it, though, and if they eat less meat because of it, then why not? Reframe it, who am I to stop them?
Regardless, I've been trying to eat less meat, mostly because the messaging works. So, keep it up!
Heck, (and I’m not sure if I agree with this), I once heard someone say they were a vegetarian that occasionally eats meat.
There's also a separate term for it: Flexitarian.
I imagine, it's such a popular stance, because it deals well with the social expectation to eat meat, which is typically the biggest barrier for people to go vegetarian. For example, you can not eat meat while you're cooking for yourself, but then have it when you're going out with friends or family.
As always these things are complicated. I do not claim to represent any group stance, but the way the animal is treated very much matters to me. How can I argue in good faith against something like Cooperative Payún Matrú, a goat herder’s collective, in the Andes? Their animals are truly free roaming. The animals’ lives are not constant suffering. It’s more sustainable than the way many of my vegetables are grown.
Fwiw there's a lot of vegans who chose their stance because of how the animals are treated.
I'm not vegan but it is rather terrible. It's beginning to affect the food, too. Ever notice that a lot of chicken has the grainy/woody issue nowadays? That's caused by the chickens growing too large too fast. Their muscles experience a lot of stress and inflammation, quite often becoming so large they literally rip off of the bones.
If you want good chicken, go to a butcher or buy air-chilled.
Even though your point of view is reasonable and a good compromise, it still makes you an enemy of vegans. Even though it's moving the world closer to their goals, they'd rather ostracize everyone who's taking measured steps.
I don't think that's true for all or even most vegans. Most vegans I know will lightly chide me to eat less animal products, and they'll list the benefits. I'm okay with that, especially because, well... they're right.
I say that because a lot of the vegans I know will explain a lot about the global socioeconomic conditions that make veganism and vegetarianism harder in poorer places.
I dunno, man, I feel like the most they're trying to do is be smug, and that's not that big of a deal to me, lol.
I think veganism just self selects for more "crazy" people, because you have to be pretty odd to go against what almost everyone else is doing. That said, I'm vegan and I basically fully agree with what they said.
Taking the eggs encourages egg laying which strains the chicken. It also encourages the enslavement of further generations of chickens and the suffocation or grinding up of male chicks.
As a vegetarian - this is hilarious
Wonder what animal rights people think about mosquitoes...
You could ask the same question about all sorts of parasites (ticks, tapeworms, etc.), but I think the answer is pretty clear. It's not the conundrum you think it is, and the vast majority of people correctly see no contradiction between killing a mosquito that's on their arm drawing blood and agreeing that mosquitoes are a relevant part of the ecosystem that should not disappear entirely.
Gee gosh what a clever point that nobody has thought of before. You're the first one! Those silly animal rights people should just give up everything they believe in now that you've totally destroyed the logic of what they've thought about way to much compared to how much you've thought about it. You've exposed their hypocrisy. If they can't do everything exactly perfect, what's the point of trying to make anything better, right? Anybody that aims for anything less than extremism doesn't really exist anyway; everybody thinks in black and white. Thank you thank you thank you for your thoughtful contributions on this subject that turns out to be really simple. Everybody else that allows for any sort of nuance is dumb compared to you with your single clever point that brings the whole thing down. Why would anybody even bother going any deeper into this than you already have since you've solved the whole thing?
Why mosquitoes? Cats are right there. They're obligate carnivores.
But I don't see that as the point, the point is that we as an (supposedly) intelligent species can choose not to murder a quarter of a billion chickens every 24 hours, and that we can replace what nutrients we get from meat with mineral, plant or fungi alternatives.
mUrDeR
People like you are why vegans/vegetarians have such an uncalled for bad rep.
Do you have a preferred term that helps you disassociate from the cruelty your lifestyle inflicts behind closed doors?
There is a word for it, it is slaughter.
No need to try to be condescending.
Interchange for any fitting synonym for murder. Slaughter for example. The meaning is the same and so is the outcome
I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan. I even worked in a slaughterhouse a few years back. I'm just saying we are smart enough to make ethical choices.
It's not really that complicated. I think most people feel that we shouldn't toruture animals. It's just that a small part realize what is happening to the animals that we eat and they don't want to be part of that system anymore. The others just look away but they actually feel the same about how we should treat animals. "Animal Rights People" are not some "hard to understand" people.
There's a difference between protecting yourself from a parasite species which spreads deadly diseases and torturing an intelligent being for no reason. Happy animals taste better, you know.
You were so close, and then fumbled at the last sentence. It doesn't matter what they taste like, you're literally just describing torturing them for fun with different words.
I don't feel 100% confident in the idea that everyone can be vegan. I do encourage everyone to consume as little animal products as is realistic for them, but not everyone is interested in doing so. If the pig has to die I would rather it live a happy life than for it to sit in cramped conditions or a solitary cell with no physical or mental stimulation.
If the pig has to die
But it doesn't. Why assume killing animals for pleasure must be done?
What I mean is that I don't have any control over whether it dies. People want to eat it, and they are not amenable to the idea they shouldn't. But they are amenable to the idea that it shouldn't be tortured beforehand. Reduction of harm is always good even if it's not perfect.
I also said I'm not sure that it's possible for everyone to live healthfully without consuming some animal products. I personally haven't been able to maintain a vegan diet for longer than two months any of the many times I've tried, so I'm not in a position to lecture anyone on what they eat.
Overall, I think a baby steps approach is the most realistically achievable path to a potential future of zero harm. (I don't say vegan here because I don't object to symbiotic forms of exploitation such as pet ownership or beekeeping.)
FYI, the user you’re arguing with is a <1d account that has only posted in this thread. I appreciate the effort you’re putting in, for those of us who have a very limited palette of what their body will tolerate. But don’t wear yourself out on an ableist troll.
They don't necessarily need to be trolling. I completely understand the passion and don't exactly disagree with them. Most people aren't consuming meat as a necessary evil; they're often consuming it in excess because it's enjoyable, even when they already understand the horrors of factory farming. It's upsetting and frustrating and I just want to do what I think is most likely to improve the situation.
Had me until the last sentence.
No animal deserves to die when humans can get all of their nutrition from fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, nuts, seeds, legumes, and algae.
Except for B12. But then again, most omnivores are deficient in B12 too, and magnesium, zing, K2, etc.
Thankfully going vegan likely means you eat last processed food and more real food, which increases vitamin intake.
This isn't really the gotcha you think it is. Killing mosquitos is self defense, it isn't comparable in any way to killing innocent animals which have done nothing to you.
In many places mosquitos are not dangerous and are at most annoying. Can I kill an animal because it's buzzing by my ear? Or should I capture and let it outside?
Neighbours cat meowed at my window, just as annoying as a mosquito if not more. Clearly that's a justified kill then.
One does not simply...
