As a Canadian I say...what took you so long? Breakups don't always need to be so complicated.
I doubt they'll drop 'em completely as to not decimate Ontario's auto sector, which I'm a part of. That would be a political suicide. I think we'll see a foreign direct investment (FDI) promise plus some tariff adjustment that could help reverse this:
And help with that:
The financial picture for car buyers gets even uglier when you look at the average transaction price (meaning the actual selling price, excluding tax) for new vehicles. It was $53,100 in 2023, according to DesRosiers Automotive Consultants. That’s up 29 per cent from $41,200 in 2019 and up 59 per cent from $33,400 in 2014. Adjusting for inflation, the increase from 2014 and 2023 is 30 per cent (And no, cars have arguably not become 30 per cent better during that time.)
AutoTrader’s Canadian online data shows average new-vehicle asking prices (meaning advertised prices on AutoTrader) have finally started to soften, dropping to $65,219 at the end of 2024 from a peak of $67,817 in September, 2023. But, let me be clear, $65,219 is still a lot of money for a car.
Either way it'll be a sign for how this relationship reset will go forward. Whether it'll be coercive, cooperative, etc.
I agree, a foreign direct investment approach would be good. We want to keep automotive skills and North American auto brands need competition otherwise we'll never get affordable EVs.
I don’t know how I feel about this.
The US is abandoning EVs and they’re dropping their EV tooling which we were just investing in. And we’re mostly tied to them.
If we built the cars here it would be okay, but Subaru imports cars and are affordable, I don’t think China will bother building them here.
The US didn't either at first. We compromised. Now they're reneging the deal.
There's a very large secondary reason that the gov should be blocking Chinese EVs beside the threat to our auto parts industry. Every new EV is a rolling data collector. Your phone captures a lot of data but its not covered in cameras that collect and transmit video/pics on everywhere you go and everything you pass and everywhere you park (like a Tesla does: https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sensitive-images-recorded-by-customer-cars-2023-04-06/).
The Chinese are famous for copying everything they can and then producing it cheaper than the original and flooding the market with copies that are a fraction of the cost. Their goal is to dominate the world market in every area and they are well on the way. Look at home much stuff we now buy on Amazon/Aliexpress/Alibaba/Shein/Temu compared to just a few years ago.
With camera covered, GPS tracked, net connected EVs there is no way to keep the last vestige of our corporate and private lives from being collected and analyzed by the Chinese government and government linked corporations. And thats not just a threat to the auto industry thats a threat to every industry in Canada and I would dare to say, to our democracy.
We cannot and should not allow Chinese EVs into Canada. Ever.
They put cameras in gas cars too. Modern cars collect and transmit too much personal data regardless of propulsion. Nor is this a chinese problem. Every car company does this. You blame china but provide a link of americans doing the bad thing. The Germans do it too, so do the French and the Japanese. Anything with a computer in it is now a surveillance device. That's a bad thing. That's something that should be stopped. Its odd you only point to one kind of car and one country.
Canada needs laws to stop this behavior of data collection. No product from any country should collect personal data not directly necessary for its function. Laws can be written to solve problems. Banning one country from one type of product does nothing.
And coincidentally, this popped up on lemmy today: https://www.spacewar.com/reports/Chinese_buses_have_major_security_flaw_says_Oslo_operator_999.html
It appears Im not the only one worried about Chinese control of EVs.
Yes? And what is uniquely chinese about this issue? Samsung, the korean company pushed ads in an update to their smart fridges. That channel could just as easily be used to brick the fridges, by the manufacturer or another malicious actor.
Nothing about any of this is china specific. None of these issues can be solved by sanctioning one country. There need to be laws to prevent any company from selling products with these problems. That is the only possible solution.
Two significant differences. Korea is not a major world player with aspirations to dominate the world economy. China is. And is succeeding.
And Korea is a presidential constitutional republic with a liberal democratic system. China is a one-party communist state that is governed by the CCP which gives them a total monopoly of political power. A look into history says we should be leery of any party that operates with a total monopoly. So yes, very China specific.
Korea is a major world player with aspirations to dominate the world economy. That's kind of the premise behind capitalism. Samsung isn't content being a small company, they are a megacorporation involved in pretty much every part of Korean society, from heavy machinery, to insurance, to medicine, electronics, capital investments, construction and more. Your assertion that only china wants to dominate international markets is patently untrue. Capitalism is defined by endless greed. No corporation would turn down domination if it has the means.
Corporations are not democratic. Korean citizens do not get to vote for the samsung president. Corporations are the ones doing these things, not democratic institutions.
Security and privacy are issues that matter. Violating privacy and making devices less secure isn't only a problem when china does it.
I grew up during the Cold War. Im well aware of the difference between the Red Threat and every other country in the world. With all due respect, you sound a bit naive about China.
You seem naive believing that corporations in other countries operate with restraint.
I agree with you that both modern tech and china are bad. However, these things are not related. You seem blinded by anti chinese prejudice, which is leading you to conflate these two issues.
If china imploded and stopped existing, modern tech would still have all the issues we discussed.
If Canada were able to implement a perfect data security law that was fully effective in banning all of these technological bad practices we discussed, it would not change china's position in the market.
That has been my point this whole time. These issues are unrelated. If you disagree, please address my point directly.
It matters who holds the data. The US holding it is a concern. China holding it is a major concern because of their ideological beliefs.
The horse has left the barn and there's no getting our privacy back again. But we CAN keep China from collecting even more and having open access to our entire country.
Its odd you only point to one kind of car and one country.
Not odd at all. Germany has no plans to dominate the entire world economy last I checked. Or the Japanese. Or France. China does.
then why bring up data at all? Or EVs? Proper data protection laws will protect Canadians regardless of the state of the market.
China dominating the world's market can be a bad thing on its own merits. There's no need to conflate these issues.
Because an EVs oft touted "feature" is over the air updates. Gas/diesel vehicles dont generally update anything significant over the air because you CAN'T update mechanical parts over the air but you certainly can for a car thats basically a computer on wheels with software that controls everything.
So despite your comment, no, most gas/diesel cars are not designed to be permanently connected to the internet and transmitting data at any time, without your knowledge like EVs are most definitely like Chinese EVs will be.
I wish I had your confidence in 'proper data protection laws' in Canada. The EU seems to have done a half decent job on that but Canada and the US are so far behind that by the time we update our privacy laws everything that can be collected already will be.
Mozilla did a study on cars and data collection. They found it was an industry wide problem. Every manufacturer tested collected tons of personal data and didn't keep it secure or private. Their writeup does not mention EVs, and it implicated brands like subaru which does not sell an EV in Canada or the US at time of writing.
This is not an EV problem.
Most cars have an internet connection. Many have a cellular modem built in. Modern infotainment systems use the internet and upload the data that way. Many cars also store data internally that is only accessible to authorized service centers through a proprietary tool, which will upload the data when serviced by a dealer. Data is valuable. Companies don't just refuse to exploit that value on principle.
I don't trust the laws as they currently exist, which is why I am advocating they be changed to stop this data collection.
All cars have this problem. EVs are not the issue. But not just cars, any device with a computer and an internet connection does this exact same thing. You can't play whack a mole banning countries in specific industries and do anything. The only solution is broad data protection laws.
The OTA updates thing is mostly the result of tesla's ineptitude and willingness to ship a defective product in the hopes they can fix it with a patch. They are not the only cars with internet connections.
Gas/diesel vehicles dont generally update anything significant over the air
This is just not true. I work in this industry and most American brands have been doing OTAs for their ICE vehicles for at least half a decade, some for longer. Gas cars absolutely have central computers running Linux/QNX with monitoring and data collection capabilities and they've had them for over a decade. They've also been internet connected for about as long. Recall Jeeps got remote controlled back in 2015. The only thing that's changed with EVs in this regard is marketing - higher emphasis on infotainment features. But the exact same systems are shipping in ICE vehicles now that EVs have taken a back seat for NA autos. I'm literally working on this stuff. :D So what the parent says is absolutely true - the only way to save ourselves from vehicle surveillance is our own government regulation.
Gotta say, Id never heard of the 2015 Jeep hack before. I wonder whether the changes after that point secured data any better.
Secured against unauthorized remote access any better - very likely. Secured data against unauthorized access, probably. But Jeep is authorized. The broader important point is that there's no fundamental difference between the computer system shipped in that 2015 Jeep and today's Jeep. There's vehicle LAN network in addition to the CAN network. There's usually several computers on it talking to each other, with access to the internet and Jeep's servers (through a cell modem). There's typically a central computer that does core function, infotainment computer that drives the centre display, an ADAS computer that does driver assist. There could be more. Today they have faster CPUs, more RAM and more storage than in 2015. Think evolution of smartphone SoCs as they're typically related. Depending on the manufacturer and model, they could be combined into fewer or spread to more computers. Also depending on the manufacturer they collect and send different amounts of data. The overarching incentive is that data collection is profitable so every manufacturer has to contend with that and oppose it to what they're allowed to do. Pretty sure you know how competition for profit maximization works. You probably have to go back to early 2010s models to find ICE vehicles without these computers.
Dude...you carry around a data collector 6 inches from your face all day that gives the data to Apple or Google. Provides a lot more data than location.
As long as it's the government with actual power over you collecting your data. Like, who could possibly object? 🙃
Not with my camera on I don't.
Every new EV is a rolling data collector.
At this point I think I trust China with my data over the Neo-fascist USA.
Plus, looking towards the future, when the US falls the sane Americans will be looking to Canada for help. In this case China definitely isn't going to be sharing data with the US.
🤡
There's no need for this. There are good faith arguments that could be made to help with some of what the parent sees as real problems that might not be quite right. You don't have to do the work but this is worse than not doing it.
YOUR SOCIAL CREDIT HAS INCREASED COMRADE
Hope you earned enough FICO points so you can afford to eat tonight!
wtf are FICO points
the dystopian social credit score used in the united states
what? how is it dystopian and how is it related to social constructs? my god it must be tiring thinking like this.
Chinese social credit scores are a myth. The sesame credit thing was a study run by one company temporarily and then stopped. It was never implemented widely and does not exist now.
Every country seems bad if you cherry pick the single worst thing you can find and attribute it to the entire country. Which is where the idea of chinese social credit came from. Its a myth.
American social credit scores encourage engagement with capitalism. They lower your score for not having debt or paying it off. The goal is to shape behavior. If you want to own a home or rent an apartment you have to buy things you don't need.
well that's an American issue. I'm not American so don't know. also yes China does have social credit scores and if you talk against the party you will be punished for it. Cant wait till Taiwan frees china from the commies.
We have American-style credit ratings in Canada generated by Equifax and TransUnion, American corporations. Maintaining these ratings produces the same behaviour modifications. One of the first things I was told when I landed in Canada in 2005 was that if I wanted to be able to buy a home, I had to get a credit card and put all my monthly transactions on it so that I build my credit score. I've been lucky to have never incurred credit card debt but I still put most of my payments through a set of credit cards. I have to specifically watch how much I put, (too much is bad, too little is bad), make sure I don't forget to pay in time and so on. I have to not switch mobile operators too often because that tanks my credit score (learned that the hard way). These days credit scores in Canada are used to screen tenants by landlords. I know a few landlords and they do rate tenant candidates by credit score. Every employer I've worked for (apart from retail) has requested and screened my credit scored before hiring me. If a Canadian has their identity stolen (like when Equifax gets hacked), their credit score is often trashed via new loans in their name, which puts them at significant risk of losing the roof over their head and curtailing their job opportunities, not to mention the direct losses as banks don't always rule in the victim's favour. Think about what the function of the credit rating in Canada is. It's clearly used for more than bank lending purposes.
TLDR that how its social credit score like china.
when you don't even know you have a social credit score 🤣
you mean a credit score? that's nowhere near the same. I think you have no idea what your talking about, but i also think your a CCP shill so you DO know what your talking about and think your clever.
You're right it's nowhere near the same because credit scores are actually real.
ok CCP shill
oh no, I'd be so insulted if I had a shred of respect for you
good for you i guess?
While you're all trying to figure out China and the US and oil geopolitics and greenhouse gases and such, I'll be riding in a European, Korean or Japanese EV M'kay? Kay.
The Japanese aren't really making EVs though. The leaf was a success, but Nissan hasn't done anything since. Japan is 100% committed to plug-in hybrids at this point.
Toyota is only coming into the EV market when solid state batteries are to be used. 2027. Nissan makes half a dozen EVs for markets that buy them. Canadians are still mostly buying large SUVs and pickups, because gas is free, apparently.
Can't speak for the ROC but in Quebec nearly 25% of all new vehicle sales are going to EV. I wouldn't say no one is buying them....
I'm not touching ICE lobby Toyota myself but I do see BZ4X and Aryia on the road.
This is happening because the CDN government knows this is moot. The Chinese EV industry is in freefall and even BYD is failing to pay it's part suppliers.
Chinese EV makers not paying parts suppliers
Chinese EVs are the next Evergrande
And CDNs are not buying EVs. F150s still rule the sales charts.
ZEVs made up 7.8% of new vehicles sold in Prince Edward Island, followed by Ontario (7.4%), Nova Scotia (6.5%), New Brunswick (5.7%), Manitoba (4.9%), Alberta (4.2%), Newfoundland and Labrador (2.6%) and Saskatchewan (2.5%).
The only province buying EVs is Quebec.
lmao the new China collapse theory just dropped, I'm sure this one will pan out unlike every other one for the past three decades
You sound like an O&G salesman.
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