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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Hypersapien@lemmy.world to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

What are cis and trans alternate types of? I don't think it's "gender identity" because wouldn't that just be man, woman or nonbinary regardless of whether they're cis or trans? Cis/trans just being a qualifier?

If the answer is "I am cis" or "I am trans", what is the question?

Edit: Someone came up with the term "gender congruity" and (after looking up the definition of "congruity") I think this describes what I'm talking about perfectly.

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[-] fubo@lemmy.world 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

To a first approximation, they describe the match or mismatch between a person's gender identity and their assigned gender at birth (AGAB).

"Cis" = "my gender identity matches my assigned gender at birth"
"Trans" = "my gender identity does not match my assigned gender at birth"

The question being asked is, "Given that when you were born they thought of you as a (boy/girl); are you now expressing or experiencing a (male/female) gender, or a (female/male) one?"

Logically speaking, this is an xor operation; it asks if two things are the same or different. If boolean variable a represents your AGAB and boolean variable b represents your gender identity, then "are you trans?" is a xor b — is your AGAB different from your gender identity?

Again, this is to a first approximation. There are people who don't fit binary labels, and so an xor operation on binary labels doesn't fit them either.

[-] mcherm@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I like the way you express this. "Cis / Trans" isn't about your gender, it's about whether your gender has CHANGED. (Although it may not be your GENDER that changed, but what people THOUGHT your gender was.)

In a similar way, I (a cis male) usually call myself "straight", but that's not really accurate. I don't feel like I'm attracted to whatever gender is different from mine (which happens to be women); I feel like I am attracted to women (which happens to be the gender that's different from mine).

Putting it differently, if some magical spell were to transform me into a woman, I don't imagine that I would then be attracted to men, I imagine that I would be attracted to women. So instead of calling myself "straight", I should probably be saying that I am "gynosexual" (attracted to women).

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[-] ulu_mulu@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Finally a "down to earth" explanation I can fully understand, thank you!

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[-] FinnFooted@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cis and trans are terms that came before their application to gender identity. I learned themin organic chemistry in reference to chemical isomers.

Wikipedia: The prefixes "cis" and "trans" are from Latin: "this side of" and "the other side of", respectively.

As applied to gender, "this side of" you are the gender of the sex you were born as. "The other side of" means you have switched your gender to the other side of the sex from which you were born.

Edit: to answer your question more directly, your gender is cis or trans of the sex you were born as. The question you ask for is: "is your gender cis or trans of your sex?"

[-] BurntPunk@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

This is the correct answer to the question that was asked by OP.

Well said.

[-] MrShelbySan@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Please note I’m typing this as a trans man. Being “cis” or “trans” stems from someone’s gender.

Basically, do you identify as your birth gender (not sex, gender and sex are different)? If the answer is yes, you are “cis”. If the answer is no, like I my case, I was born female, I identify as a male, then you are are trans.

I hope this answers your question.

[-] GaryPonderosa@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Shouldn't it be that you identify with your birth sex? If gender is a social construct you don't have a gender at birth. When the doctor says "It's a boy" they're referring to the genitalia you have, not assigning you a social position.

[-] LadyAutumn 6 points 1 year ago

No, gender is a social construct and the doctor is assigning a gender to you when you are born based on what he sees as your genital configuration. This is then used to determine nearly everything about you through the social framework of gender.

What colors you're allowed to like, what games you can play, what names you can have, what words are acceptable to refer to you with, who you're allowed to be friends with, what foods your supposed to like, what clothes you're allowed to wear, how people should speak to you, how people should praise you, how people should scold you, whether or not misogyny should be applied to you, and so on and so forth.

Those things are determined based on the gender you are assigned at birth. Those things are enforced across all society at all social levels and in all settings. Parents are the first people to enforce gender onto their children, intentionally or not. Then every single other adult and child they meet or interact with throughout their childhood will continue to enforce gender upon them until they themselves become adults and repeat the cycle with their own kids. Media perpetuates gender, government laws enforce gender, education systems are filled with people who systematically enforce gender upon children.

Thats what we mean when we say gender is a social construct. And you're assigned one at birth.

[-] GaryPonderosa@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No, sex is a biological characteristic and the doctor is describing your phenotypic sex based on observable characteristics. This really isn't that complicated. There are two* combinations of chromosomes that determine sex, so there are two sexes. This is basic biology and has absolutely fuckall to do with gender as a social construct.

* Really there are around a half dozen sex chromosome combinations because they occasionally get duplicated. Functionally there are two because all of the combinations except 1 have a y chromosome and are male

[-] LadyAutumn 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nope. They don't even check your chromosomes when you're born. There are also many possible genital configurations at birth. Odd that we don't treat every one of those possibilities uniquely and instead force them to get surgery so the doctor can assign a gender to them. You'd think if it was all basic biology we would just have a unique gender for every one wouldn't you?

There are also many, many more possible configurations of your chromosomes than half a dozen lol. You can also have XY and be assigned female at birth. And vice versa.

Your doctor is assigning you a gender. Thats what he's doing. He calls you either a boy or a girl based on your genital configuration and then as I said in my previous comment that assigned gender goes on to affect every single aspect of your life for the rest of your life.

You don't seem to know what we're even talking about. Sex is not binary and is not enshrined in biology. If we wanted to talk about biology, if the point was biology, if the doctor assigning genders to babies primary concern was biology, then he would assign a unique gender to every single possible genital configuration at birth. All of them would be unique. Instead he's assigning you a gender so that society can treat you a certain way. It's that simple.

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[-] RustledTeapot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

You might not believe in the social construct at birth, but the social construct believes in you. Children are treated differently based on assigned gender from birth.

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[-] Hypersapien@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I understand what they are, I'm asking if there is a name for the category of characteristic that they both belong to.

I'm not entirely sure there is a word for it. If not, maybe there should be.

[-] VoxAdActa@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

I understand what they are, I'm asking if there is a name for the category of characteristic that they both belong to.

You're not getting an answer to your question because the question, as stated, is incomprehensible. You're asking for a "category of characteristic" that a pair of antonym adjectives "belong to"? That doesn't make sense. They apply to a whole host of characteristics, because they're not describing a specific characteristic, but how a characteristic relates to the whole. Just like "homo" and "hetero"; homozygous, heterogenous, homocystine, and heterophony are all words that use the "homo" or "hetero" prefix to describe how those words relate to other concepts in their category. It's the same with "cis" and "trans". The prefixes don't "belong" to a category of characteristics, they explicitly exist outside of the characteristics of the words their modifying.

That's the best I can do with the way you've chosen to phrase your question, and I admit it's a reach, but your question is gibberish.

[-] Hypersapien@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Male, female or nonbinary are a person's gender.
White, black, asian (nonexclusively) are a person's race.
Right, left are a person's handedness.
Gay, straight, bi are a person's sexual orientation.
Cis, trans are a person's ________.

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[-] LadyAutumn 4 points 1 year ago

There is no such category. Being cisgender or being transgender describes the relationship between 2 variables. The first being your assigned gender. The second being your gender identity. Cisgender means there is an equivalence of those 2 variables. Transgender means there is not an equivalence of those 2 variables.

The reason we use the term trans which means roughly "other side" to describe this is because you cannot know you are transgender at birth. Your gender identity is assumed to be cisgender, it is assumed to be the same as the gender you are assigned. So when you reveal your gender identity to in fact be something different you are moving to another side of gender. At least in literal usage of the terms cis and trans.

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[-] RustledTeapot@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

"Relationships between gender identity and birth sex."

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[-] wagesj45@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that cis and trans really only have context of an expectation. In this case, it would be the expectation of society.

You are correct that if you identify as a woman or a man, you are a woman or man. If you have a penis, or a vagina, or some mix or lack of those, then those are just parts of your body and that isn't really up to interpretation.

In broad strokes, society expects your body parts (penis, vagina) to correspond to how you identify (man, woman). Humans are kind of just built this way. Our brains take a lot of shortcuts and categorize the world around us. It is statistically likely that if you have a penis, you identify as a man.

As we've evolved as a society, we have come to understand and recognize that these statistically likely correlations not always hold up (it's just likely, not a guarantee, after all). So cis and trans are descriptors of whether or not the correlation between your gender identity and your physical characteristics match (cis) or don't match (trans) society's expectations.

[-] irkli@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm male, I look in the mirror and see a man, I'm fine being a man. I'm gay, I've pondered 'but what if I was a woman'? My body, clothing, etc. ... Nahh, that's not me. I'm cisgendered.

'cis' means, metaphorically, 'same side'. cis- is a prefix used in other disciplines, and was first used in 1914. It's not a 'made up woke word' like bigots claim.

Also, all words are made up. We make language work for us, and it changes all the time. This is a feature not a bug.

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[-] michikade@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cisgender means the person has a gender identity that matches the sex they were assigned at birth.

If you are a man and you were assigned male at birth, you are cis.

If you are a man and you were assigned female at birth, you are trans.

Non-binary can mean anything from not having a strong specifically male or female identity to closer to switching identities (bi-gender falls closer into this) to just having a lot of serious fluidity, but typically speaking at least part of the time the identity doesn’t match the assigned sex at birth.

[-] match@pawb.social 6 points 1 year ago

gender chirality . gender isomerism. gender topology

[-] Woozy@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

My topology is a tube with appendages. Ultimately, humans (like all chordates) are convoluted toroids.

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[-] AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I don't think any of you read his question.

[-] jeffjefferson@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

If you're so smart answer the question. I bet you can't because the way it's worded makes no sense.

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[-] Ciari@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

They're adjectives. Just like "tall" or "smart" or "young".

The question would just be "are you cis or trans?", there's not a specific word or term that you'd use.

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[-] TitanLaGrange@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can think of 'cis' and 'trans' as meaning roughly 'this side' and 'other side'.

In a gender context the 'sides' are male and female and the items are physical gender and mental gender. If both genders are on the same side, both on 'this side', that's 'cis'. If they are different, one 'this side', one 'other side', that's 'trans'.

So, if the answer is "I am cis/trans" the question is "Is your mental gender the same as your physical gender?" "I am cis" then means "My mental gender is the same as my physical gender" and "I am trans" means "My mental gender is not the same as (or maybe 'is opposite') my physical gender".

Note that 'physical gender' is not always clear. Some people are born with ambiguous genitalia and may be surgically altered to make their genitalia more closely resemble the commonly recognized pattern for 'male' or 'female', and some may be left as-is. In some cases this can be a reason for a trans gender identity.

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[-] LadyAutumn 2 points 1 year ago

"Describe the relationship between your assigned gender and your gender identity."

[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I think it's an alignment, like parallel vs. perpendicular.

If you identify with your sex at birth, whatever it is, your identity is aligned with your biological sex at birth, that is called Cisgender. Parallel.

If your gender identity is not aligned with your biological sex at birth, it is at an angle to it, perhaps perpendicular (you were a boy baby but are a woman) perhaps a different angle (perhaps were born a girl and are non-binary). Anything other than that parallel alignment is thrown into the Trans bucket, but particularly the perpendicular arrangements.

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this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
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