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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Dark_Arc@lemmy.world to c/gamedev@programming.dev

There are plenty of multiplayer games I adore. However, it seems like every community has these "brain dead", patronizing, or out right toxic elements that are just nasty. I'd rather debate politics than make suggestions in some gaming communities because the responses are just so ... annoying.

As an example, I once dared to suggest that a game developer implement a mode to prevent crouched status from rendering on death cams so that players that are bothered by t-bagging could avoid it (after a match where a friend rage quit because someone just kept head shotting him -- possibly with cheats -- and then t-bagging). This post got tons of hate, and like -50 upvotes on reddit because of course someone should be forced to watch someone t-bag them.

Another example on a official game forum... I made a forum post suggesting Bungie use Mastodon (or really just something else being my intent)... The response I got was some positivity but mostly just "lol nobody uses that sweetie" and other patronizing comments.

Meanwhile studios themselves often seem to be filled with developers that understand this stuff is a problem, and the lack of sportsmanship (or generally civilized attitudes) does push away players. It just doesn't make sense to me that no studio is saying "get lost" to these elements or implementing anti-toxicity features. I just want to play games with nice normal people, is that really so much to ask?

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[-] Pons_Aelius@kbin.social 38 points 1 year ago

I hate to say it but many people play multiplayer games because it gives them the ability to be complete cunts to others with zero possibility of any real repercussions.

That is the draw.

Behaviours that would get you thrown out of a public space or banned from a group d&d session or punched in the face can be repeated again and again in online gaming.

The same people that like to troll spaces like this are the same people who only play multiplayer games to grief others.

It is an often repeated quote, to the point it has become trite but it is true:

Some people just want to watch the world burn

[-] Maolmi@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago

Anonymity + Audience = Assholes.

[-] Pons_Aelius@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yep. Penny arcade did a great comic on this almost 20 years ago.

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory

Which was:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad

They then refined it to:

Normal Person - Consequences + Audience = Total Fuckwad

Which is a perfect explanation for Twitter both before and after EM took over.

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[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's... depressing but I could easily see it...

Still, I find it hard to believe that's the majority. I remember days when it wasn't as bad as it's gotten. Like is it so many people that it would truly hurt profits that much vs what it could bring (there was a point where my friends and I almost entirely stopped playing online games because these people were just making it an annoying experience instead of a fun one; I can't imagine I'm in the only group of friends that experienced that/had folks that had to take a break).

I'd really love it if someone who works for one of these bigger studios (even anonymously) said why seemingly no time is spent on really trying to just expel toxic players like would be done in real life (in the various examples you gave).

Edit: My true pipedream would be that there's some next level person (senior dev, staff software engineer, product owner) at one of these studios lurking that goes "you know what you have a point" and actually does something about this 😅

[-] Pons_Aelius@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago

It is not the majority but:

1: The angry cunts drive away the players that just want to have fun, so they can soon dominate a space and turn a game toxic is a short time.

2: People remember the bad interactions. It you play ten games in a session and only one is filled with toxic arseholes...Guess which game you will remember the next day.

3: Once the toxic shitheads find a game that is allowing their behaviour to continue and not dropping the ban hammer on them, they will keep coming back and invite their toxic mates to join the fun.

[-] DasRubberDuck@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure I even regard this as a developer studios responsibility.

What has the game to do with how it's players behave? Your teebagging example is great for this: You seek a technical solution for a behavioural problem of the player base? That's a bit too far.

I'm pretty sure I know the players you describe. I've played against them, I've played with them and talked to them. I've let them get to me and ragequit. They are clearly cunts and bullies. Not much you can do about them.

Change what is in your control: Play in a good state of mind where this stuff does not get to you (not when you're tired after work). Turn off voice comms. Don't let it get to you. Worst thing you can do to a troll is ignore them.

[-] Mikina@programming.dev 5 points 1 year ago

Not much you can do about them.

Most of the games have ignore/mute. I've learned to automatically block anyone at the first sign of mild toxicity, so I don't have to see the rest and have it ruin my experience. I'm never going to see the people again anyway, so there's no reason to give them the benefit of a doubt, and by blocking them early I can play in peace and still have fun.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

For a while now, I've been asking one simple question with a way I think could help reduce, if not eliminate, toxicity from players:

How do you gamify good sportsmanship?

If you can actually gamify and incentivize good sportsmanship in a tangible, meaningful way, it could do a lot to help with the crap commonly seen/heard in video game chats and forums.

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I think that's a very interesting question! I don't have a good answer. In real life, this onus is on coaches, organizers, etc... so it's always seemed like something that moderators should just need to actually do.

What bothers me about this with video games is that I know as a programmer, programmers are capable of just shutting people down when they do obviously disrespectful things like t-bagging, and in games that have explicit taunts... they're perfectly capable of just giving players an option to disable taunts... but they don't.

It's kind of like chat filters, we don't have to sanitize it for everybody, but there should be an option.

[-] Caboose12000@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

if youre really interested in the idea of gaminfying good sportsmanship, I think the Deep Rock Galactic community would be the best place to start. it's not devoid of toxicity, but it has arguably the least amount of it out of any other online game. I think the devs mentioned they think a lot of it has to do with things like having a solute/celebrate button (hence why all DRG fans will communicate via yelling "ROCK AND STONE!"), although being a co-op non-vs game helps I'm sure.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Taunting animations and t-bagging are pretty mild and I've always considered them in the realm of playful trash talk in the vein of things like "you're going down, bro!" If they're also talking massive shit while doing it, that's a different story.

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[-] nyctre@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It's not impossible, it's just not profitable. In most online games cosmetics are quite important. And you can easily make it that the only way to get them is by having a high community score or whatever you wanna call it. And even make it so that if your score drops, you lose access to them. There will still be assholes using the default model, sure, but I'm pretty sure most people will be going out of their way to be nice if there's something in it for them. And after a while of forcing yourself to do something it becomes habit. And that may be a way to teach players to be nice. Dunno, just a thought

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[-] Stuka@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You're playing competitive games with primarily teenagers and young adults. They are always gonna be toxic and very few companies are willing to dedicate a ton of resources towards content moderation. There are big games that do, like Overwatch, so if it's a problem for you then you should either only play those games, or play games that don't attract the young toxic crowds as much.

And honestly asking for a feature to hide your delicate eyes from teabagging in an FPS is a bit much.

[-] RealFknNito@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Please.. Please just let it be toxic. I get that it can get pretty bad but I'm exhausted of having to police my language to the utmost degree because a dev thinks "night" is a racial slur because of the first three letters. The systems suck, it makes normal communication a chore, and the few wholesome moments often get ruined by it. Censorship in games and online to avoid toxicity is becoming a stranglehold and I can't take it.

[-] graphicsguy@programming.dev 11 points 1 year ago

You're right that it's messy and imperfect and false positives can be really frustrating.

But the alternative - no efforts to maintain a safe space - is that vulnerable people are typically the target. Toxicity typically punches down.

I'll happily trade some clunky inconvenience so that those people can safely participate

[-] spicyemu@programming.dev 5 points 1 year ago

But the alternative - no efforts to maintain a safe space - is that vulnerable people are typically the target.

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

[-] RealFknNito@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It doesn't need to be all or nothing. We can do it in moderation. Remove slurs, don't over reach by going after every curse word, every bad phrase, every impolite slight. We don't need an internet with training wheels or water wings. Most of us are adults and I'd like to feel like one when I log on.

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Most of us are adults and I'd like to feel like one when I log on.

I'd like to feel like it too. Adults shouldn't act like children.

[-] graphicsguy@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

Ya fair enough. I'd put my "razor" at behaviour that targets vulnerable / minorities, which is probably broader / vaguer than just slurs, but it's going to be a spectrum of opinions and preferences

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[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You're welcome to be toxic with others who want that, but I hate that this behavior, defines the competitive gaming experience. There should be other options.

I'm not talking about "safe spaces", I'm talking about giving people options to say "fuck that" without having to just avoid the game (something that's totally possible).

You don't need banned for doing stuff like this, but you also don't need to be shoving it down people's throats that just want to play the game on skill and strategy alone without this cringe "mind game" idea and blatant disrespect for other players.

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[-] fluckx@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Meh. Restarted a rant three times now.

I'll leave it at this.

Online sportsmanship is dead. There's zero consequence for being a direct cunt online. And reporting systems rarely report back if any action is taken against a player you reported.

Doing a mythic+3 in WoW? Get kicked over your spec because it's not the best one, even though the two friends you're bringing cleared all +15s.

Lost a clutch game? "Ggez" from the enemy team

Ruining it for the other team is part of the game and I think that's horrible.

I'd there's no "society"/community to give consequences to your actions, there's no incentive to get them to stop

[-] angryzor@programming.dev 5 points 1 year ago

It's a direct consequence of matchmaking (and in League of Legends specifically also of terrible game design). If you were to play with the same, smaller set of people every time this behavior wouldn't happen as often because people would simply start telling you you're a dick. In matchmaking there are no consequences as the chance you'll ever play the same opponent again before they forgot about you is minimal.

[-] darq@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Matchmaking systems basically make players anonymous. There's basically no incentive not to be an ass, because after a match players may never see each other again, or if they do they won't recognise each other.

While toxicity has always been an issue, it was less of a problem when multiplayer was more community-driven. I remember playing TF2 in local servers, and the thing that kept the worst toxicity in check was that people recognised each other. Regulars gained reputation with other regulars, which held value. And if someone was particularly toxic, they'd get banned.

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[-] squiblet@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

I found game communities on reeedit to be fairly annoying for similar reasons. Even for games where the community at large is fairly positive, there was a lot of random downvoting of topics and comments for no reason but bitterness or disapproval. A sizable and vocal minority seemed to come to the subs just to complain about the game, like "game is dead!" or "this update sucks!" or "they're going to close the servers, nobody plays!". There was one person who started really annoying me with their constant doom and bitterness in every single thread every day - like, we LIKE this game, stop trying to make us feel bad about it - so I googled their name. Like, do they play other games? Stream on Twitch? I found their public Steam profile with the same distinctive name as the reddit account. According to the achievements they hadn't even played the game they complained about every day long enough to get the most basic achievments (reach level 20...). I pointed that out on the sub and someone told me I was "STALKING". Yeah, one google search and looking at a public Steam profile... that's stalking.

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

That's crazy! I can't understand why someone would spend all that time on a game they've barely played.

Like, I can get regularly giving constructive criticism/trying to bring light to an issue ... but to just comment stuff like that is so annoying.

[-] subignition@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

The simple answer is that community moderation takes a human labor force, the cost of which is substantial and conflicts with the profit motive of the companies involved. There's just no financial incentive to clean things up beyond a threshold that would result in lawsuits or reputational damage. Because this kind of "toxic" behavior is becoming more normalized, and typically doesn't rise to a liability, you're not going to see most companies address it. This is why it has become customary for online gamers to have fucked your mother last night.

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

This is why it has become customary for online gamers to have fucked your mother last night.

I got a laugh out of this one, thank you 😂

[-] Spzi@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

It's also hard to draw a line between blunt and rude, toxic and a honest, negative opinion. Once you start moderating, people expect some fairness and transparency. Or pretend so. They will complain about the moderation, play the system, troll. A company might easily get more shit for trying than for doing nothing, which is the norm.

[-] subignition@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Yeah, there is no perfect solution to this kind of behavior, but I'm familiar with this kind of toeing the line, too. Crying censorship to try to stir the pot despite the social contract is already in tatters...

I think it is important for a community to have a "We reserve the right to refuse service for any reason" to lean on in this case. Sometimes you need to be able to say "Well, your behavior has not crossed the line of any rules, but you've been such an asshole since your first strike that we're showing you the door anyway"

[-] AlphaOmega@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Maybe try a different game? Some communities are just way more toxic than others.
Battle bits is a good example of what a mostly non toxic community is like.
Bf2042 isn't toxic because you can no longer communicate with the other team, so no one even talks in chat at all. Squad and Arma are filled with mature gamers and practically no toxicity.

Or you can just mute everyone at the start like I do in Apex. They never use the mic for communication, only to bitch and moan after they die doing something stupid. So it's no loss. Or you can get friends, hook up on discord or similar and ignore everyone else

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, this is basically what I've done. Hunt I've been pretty happy with. Destiny is the one that triggered this post, and the one that keeps catching me off guard.

I mostly play PvE stuff with friends and feel at peace with the game and how Bungie presents themselves ... then I get total culture shock when I engage outside of my friends group.

Appreciate you looking out for my mental health though 😅

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[-] Rayspekt@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

Man, if I could play League of Legends with decent human beings consistently, I would be so happy.

[-] steal_your_face@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

if you get angry at people in a video game I think it’s time to step away from the game. While I think action should be taken against hate speech and racism a little trash talk in competitive games is par for the course. Personally I think tea-bagging is hilarious even when done against me. I also usually mute anyone not in my group so I don’t hear annoying people screaming which can be done in any modern game.

[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"If someone pushes your buttons repeatedly to try and tick you off, and it does or you just generally don't like it, you're the problem ... it's just a video game"

I don't buy this argument... and characteristically that's the exact argument you're making. If it didn't work other people wouldn't be in here defending it as a "mind game."

This has been sorted out in other competitive spaces, there's no reason gaming has to be this way.

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[-] Zikeji@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

A while back I decided to stop playing competitive/pvp focused games due to the stress it would cause me. One of the biggest things I've noticed is just how much less toxicity there is.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 5 points 1 year ago

like every community has these “brain dead”, patronizing, or out right toxic elements that are just nasty

Which is extremely unfortunate. WoW forum threads could be a cesspool in a matter of seconds.

Anyway, as others pointed out, the main problem is competition. The more competitive a game is, the more invested some people get. The more invested you get, the more likely you are to rage at losses and behave like a monkey against a losing opponent. Hell, you don't even need to be a player to feel invested, just look at people that worship their sports team.

For online games, companies just shrug and point to their automations for trying to control toxicity (Riot Games probably being the "best" in the area), because it's much easier to automate than to come up with a solution.

My main recommendation is to avoid super competitive games. If you want to play those, then you're probably better off trying to find small groups of colleagues for that. In ye olde days of games coming with the server-side executable, these groups were called clans. Quake, Unreal and Jedi Outcast had lots of them.

[-] FireTower@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Serious competitive multiplayer games have this problem IMO because they foster a us v them competitive mindset and take no steps to dissuade players taking it to seriously. Players act like crabs in a proverbial MMR bucket.

[-] highduc@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

For a long time I asked myself the same question. Never found a very satisfying answer. In the meantime I stopped playing Dota 2 (which often has griefers) and Battlefield (which often has cheaters) so I'm not so troubled by this issue anymore.
I think devs just don't care and leave dealing with these kinda folks up to the players just because it's the status quo and nobody pushes them to do anything about it.

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[-] Rayspekt@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

A big point could be that those toxic cunts are the players that are the most engaged with the game and maybe spend the most money. Nobody needs to pay for skins more than one time in League, except for people with smurfs for example.

[-] spicyemu@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago

Why are gaming communities for multiplayer games so often filled with toxicity? Why aren't game developers doing more to stop this?

Have you read Lord of the Flies?

[-] Still@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

the BM is entirely the reason why multiplayer games stay popular. getting rid of stuff that tilts people would absolutely change the balance of almost every multiplayer game, and I don't think many people want that as the mind games add a lot to the depths of play style.

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[-] Still@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

to put it simply the psychological warfare is part of the game , counterstrike for example if you get yourself.into the head of your opponents early you can basically walk all over them for the rest of the march, and besides the toxicity leads to increased levels of competition

[-] ahornsirup@artemis.camp 4 points 1 year ago

As someone with a competitive sports background (swimming), yeah, no. This shit would get you disqualified and, if repeated, banned from competition for life in most sports. It's not a necessary part of any competition.

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[-] Dark_Arc@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've only heard this take from cringe twitch streamers... and suffice to say I don't think it's a good one.

I don't want someone to lose because they're too mad to aim... it's a game. We should all just be playing to have fun, not treating it like some psyop.

Edit: Also plenty of what I'm talking about here is outside of an actual match as well/forum behavior.

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[-] Mikina@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago

That why I usually try to avoid matchmaking as much as possible, and stick to a smaller communities within the game.

For example, when I was spending some time few years ago in the WoW roleplay community, which was one of the most fun I ever had with that game, I've found out that if I do pugs with people from within it, be it just picking up people on the main realm's Discord or from one of the RP guilds I've met, I've never had issues with toxicity. Even if I eventually stopped RPing, I still have a friendlist full of people I know I can pug with without problems, or I can just hop onto the Discord again and pick up a pug there. Also - I've never had as much fun progressing through raids as when it was with a group full of hardcore RPers from our RP guild, who we've managed to convince to give raiding a try, even though they mostly just use WoW as a platform for playing DnD. Most of them weren't really good, it was slow and painful progress, but we still had a lot of fun.

And I have the same experience with Sea of Thieves, where I found a smaller local Discord server that used to host game nights, and it was also a nice experience. Sure, I had to make the effort to get to know the people, instead of relying on anonymous matchmaking - but that's what multiplayer should be about. And still, in general, even if I play with random people I don't know from within the smaller community, it's generally a lot better experience - because assholes and toxic people generally don't last long there.

And if I do play a MP game with random people, I just mute people at the first sign of toxicity, and just add them to my ignore list.

[-] TheDarkKnight@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Deep Rock has an amazing community mainly because the devs take it into consideration with the entire design of the game. It is possible.

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this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2023
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