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submitted 5 months ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/world@lemmy.world
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[-] frezik 151 points 5 months ago

Hey, Germany, if Trump thinks you're doing something right, take that as a warning.

[-] blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works 67 points 5 months ago

If a millionaire calls a practice bankrupt

They mean for millionaires

Thus, it's a great idea for the 99%

[-] NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 56 points 5 months ago

Well the guy does know a thing or two about bankrupcy.

[-] Inucune@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

"Generally, the objective of gold is to lower your score..."

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 56 points 5 months ago

Another hour of "You're shit, I'm the best" from psycho grandad.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 44 points 5 months ago

"All green all bankrupt."

"Sorry, hold on a sec, I need to shovel billions in subsidies to oil companies..."

[-] einkorn@feddit.org 30 points 5 months ago

Uhm, we don't and won't do nuclear anymore? Except for that wanna be food influencer in Bavaria everyone including the companies agree nuclear is dead.

[-] non_burglar@lemmy.world 25 points 5 months ago

Its not the nuclear part, it's the part where Trump thinks public utilities should be for profit first.

[-] Paddzr@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Why is nuclear bad? Doesn't it generate fuck ton of energy and is quite safe? The one in japan survived tsunami and earthquakes.

[-] BigBenis@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

There's an enormous amount of fear mongering around nuclear. A lot of concern is around the waste product despite the fact that far less is generated compared to coal and it is far more easily contained rather than just being dumped into our atmosphere.

[-] Tryenjer@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

Nuclear should be considered just another source of renewable energy.

[-] prex@aussie.zone 1 points 5 months ago

Survived is being a bit generous: The accident was rated seven (the maximum severity) on the International Nuclear Event Scale by Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

[-] F_State@midwest.social 1 points 5 months ago

That's so disappointing. Solar and Wind have their place but Nuclear should be the back bone that smooths out the supply.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 22 points 5 months ago

Trump speeches are like a flame thrower on a pivot .... your just turn on the unit and it starts burning random things within range and you won't know where it will spew it's flames.

[-] ninjabard@lemmy.world 17 points 5 months ago

Nuclear Energy is the way forward. But Trump is the express lane to everything backwards. So, I'm conflicted.

[-] Jumi@lemmy.world 18 points 5 months ago

It's not, it's more costly and error prone than renewables especially long-term.

Solar is literally free energy with very little maintenance and overhead.

[-] ninjabard@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

But cannot meet demands or surges like nuclear can.

Fair, but it's literally free energy. The sun just gives it to us for free.

[-] F_State@midwest.social 1 points 5 months ago

It's not free, there are still expense in creating and recycling the panels.

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[-] kami@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 5 months ago

Another good reason for me to be against nuclear

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 46 points 5 months ago

So you're saying because trump goes on a rant and doesn't slander nuclear power, that's a reason not to continue to progress with the tech?

What a strange take.

[-] HKPiax@lemmy.world 32 points 5 months ago
[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 20 points 5 months ago

For real. The only maybe compelling arguments are the risk of reactor meltdown and nuclear waste, but modern reactor design and safety practices make that essentially a non-issue (indeed, nuclear power is safer even than wind power, statistically), and people typically vastly overestimate the amount of waste that is produced (all of the nuclear waste from power generation that humanity has ever produced could fit on just six cargo ships with some room left over, and that ignores the fact that not all waste is equally dangerous) and it’s not like other power generation methods don’t generate pollutants and waste either, it typically just gets vented into the atmosphere. Personally, I’d rather the waste be in a form we can contain.

The only actual problem with nuclear is that there isn’t enough nuclear material in the world for it to provide for all of our power generation needs, but that’s not even really a problem so much as it just means it can’t be our only solution to the problem, and nuclear is incredible for generating a stable baseline, an advantage that something like wind and solar lack. Until we crack profitable fusion, it is far and away one of our best options.

[-] frezik 11 points 5 months ago

Economics. Fission build out sucks ass. This is the one and only reason there aren't any new reactors coming online in the US. The NRC is giving out new licenses, but nobody wants to fund that shit because it's been a black hole of money.

[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago

True, but I would argue that this isn’t an issue with fission power so much as an argument that it should be handled, either in part or in whole, by the government rather than the market. All kinds of things exist which are necessary for a populace which are not economically viable for private operators (fire departments, postal services, public transit, etc.), and typically the role of government in that scenario would be to step in and either make it viable through subsidy or just pay the cost outright and personally operate it (indeed, this is part of a larger argument that public utilities like power probably shouldn’t be privately owned in the first place). Nonetheless, if we’re being realistic, that is unlikely to change anytime soon, particularly in the US, so I can see the value in assessing from a perspective of optimizing for raw economic pressure, as that is likely the only way we’ll be able to get the people and organizations with significant capital on hand to align with the goal of renewable energy.

[-] frezik 6 points 5 months ago

There's no particular reason to think that government dumping money into fission would produce a better result than dumping it into grid, solar, and wind.

[-] frustrated_phagocytosis@fedia.io 9 points 5 months ago

I get it, letting people like Trump oversee nuclear power is dangerous as hell. More responsible adults may be capable, but if you've got fascism and oligarchy in the mix, it should be avoided unless you like nuclear disasters and extremely unregulated storage of nuclear waste.

[-] Witchfire@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

That sounds less like a problem with nuclear and more like a problem with authoritarianism. Throw it on the pile.

[-] frezik 7 points 5 months ago

Germany shouldn't be shutting down existing nuclear reactors that work perfectly well.

They also shouldn't bother building new ones. Fission is a dead end tech.

That goes for just about everyone.

[-] iglou@programming.dev 4 points 5 months ago

This, rather than building new fission reactors, we should fund research on fusion. It is really promising, and addresses all the biggest issues of fission.

[-] frezik 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

That's where I realized Greenpeace (and related Green parties worldwide) has it all wrong.

In high school in the 90s, I was reading up on nuclear power and came across an article from Greenpeace about it. Of course, they're against fission, but when it got to the portion on nuclear fusion, they were still against it on the basis of "we could be putting that money in solar and wind".

That's when I knew Greenpeace was not led by serious people. Have yet to see a reason to change that position.

[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

I agree we need to fund it more, absolutely, but I heavily disagree with your assessment. Our fossil fuel emissions are a problem we need to address now, and I think it would be incredibly unwise for us to gamble on the unknown timeline of fusion to mature enough to address the problem in time. In my view, we should be focusing on halting our emissions with current, proven tech first, and then once fusion power becomes viable and scalable, then we can start switching from fission to fusion.

[-] frezik 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Fission isn't what you want, then. If you had 100 licenses from the NRC in hand today, not a single GW of new nuclear would come online in the US before 2030. Possibly not even 2035.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 4 points 5 months ago

And how long before we get fusion?

[-] frezik 4 points 5 months ago

A lot longer than making grid improvements, solar, and wind.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 months ago

You are worse than a broken record.

[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Correct. This is another part of why fission can’t be our only solution, but that doesn’t mean that we should be betting on fusion in place of fission. Typical times to build and operationalize a fission reactor are in the 5-15 year range from what I understand, but that is significantly lower than the expected timelines for us cracking fusion power and getting the tech mature enough to be able to implement it at scale for power generation. Additionally, the most likely type of fusion that we would be using in this case would be Deuterium-Tritium fusion, which generates neutron radiation and nuclear waste as a result (though significantly less than fission), so you would be likely to see similar waste disposal requirements. Consequently, I would expect similar timelines as fission power operationalization for a fusion plant (though likely still lower than fission, of course, due to the lack of reactor meltdown risk needing to be accounted for).

Between the research component which we have no true ability know the timeline of, only make educated guesses, alongside the construction and operationalization timeline, you’re probably looking at twice the length of time as bringing a fission plant online as a hard minimum, and I’m of the opinion it will likely be even longer. As a result, I think there’s a compelling argument for fission in the interim, though I will admit you are correct in that fusion research investment may have the ability to significantly change this calculus, so I understand your perspective.

[-] frezik 4 points 5 months ago

The problem is that fission does not actually hybridize with solar/wind/water very well. There is one possible exception; on the question of fission, I've switched from "yes" to "no" to "maybe, but still probably no" due to that one exception.

Fission has extremely high up front capital costs, but relatively low ongoing costs. What that means is you really, really want to run it at 100% as close to 24/7 as you possibly can. You also can't stop your fuel from undergoing decay even when it's not at critical, though that's somewhat minor.

Solar and wind have the issue that the amount of power you get from them doesn't ever match the amount of power you want. They're also so dirt cheap that we want to use as much of it as we possibly can. To complement them, we need something that can vary its power output.

That is not fission. It fights against that for economic and physics reasons. You end up having to shut off solar and wind at otherwise viable times because fission wants to keep dumping power on the grid.

Can't seem to find the reference now, but there is one proposed type of plant that stores the superheated steam in the secondary loop, and can therefore vary its output as needed. This would hybridize much better with solar and wind. However, it hasn't been proven in practice, and doesn't address a number of other economic problems with fission.

All that said, grid upgrades, grid upgrades, grid upgrades. I can't emphasize them enough, even though they're really boring. When you have good long distance transmission, the wind is always blowing somewhere, and the sun is shining somewhere for much of the day. You end up not needing nearly as much storage as you'd think. In fact, we may already have enough pumped hydro in the US to make it work. If not, then it's fairly close.

[-] Impound4017@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Interesting! That’s a very reasonable view, and I hadn’t considered that problem of hybridization, but put in those terms I definitely see your point of how these are somewhat mutually incompatible. I would think, however, that energy storage and grid upgrades would, if I’m understanding correctly, also assist in solving the hybridization problem, as it brings those unpredictable generation methods closer to a stable output value, allowing for it to be more easily accounted for alongside the stable output of fission, with bursts either being handled by storage or some other generation method like conventional generators (after all, we don’t actually have to take carbon emissions to zero, simply get them below the value at which more carbon is absorbed than released). Additionally, while solar is unpredictable as a result of weather, what we can say is that it only produces power during the day, and the daytime is generally when power consumption is at its highest (not universally true, particularly in that evening/early nighttime period, but the daytime is a significant spike), so I would think that helps to some degree with the variable power output problem.

Still, I can see your point, definitely. I don’t think this reduces fission’s viability for stable generation, in particular for countries which might not have the right kind of geography for those other power generation methods to be viable, but when you have the geography of a country like the US, I’ll concede that it’s definitely not your only option, and that there are others with lower upfront cost than fission. Even this isn’t necessarily true if countries were willing to link their grids to expand the available geography, but that is unlikely to become widespread practice anytime soon due to the geostrategic risk that energy dependence like that exposes you to.

And, to your point, if we’re looking from a raw economics perspective, building a fission plant which you plan to replace with fusion in 30-50 years is actually even more expensive, because a large portion of the reactor’s operational lifespan is not being utilized and so therefore isn’t offsetting that initial upfront cost.

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[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If people are still building fossil fuel plants, it's preferable that they build nuclear instead. Nuclear has the downsides of what to do with the waste (modern reactors produce much less than older designs, and some actually use the waste from older designs as fuel), expansion of fossil fuels have the downside that we won't live long enough for nuclear waste to become any kind of real problem

Obviously renewables are best, but whilst we've not got the battery tech ready for 100% renewable base load, it's not enough on its own.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good

[-] yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 5 months ago

Base load doesn't exist. At least not in the way you consider it to.

Right now energy production is based on demand. With renewables, this should be reversed: Demand should adjust to the supply.

One very quick way to achieve this is by mandating dynamic electricity pricing for everyone - company or individual alike.

It will not take long for energy intensive companies to construct their own battery storage (since "purchasing" at -1 cent/kWh is much more economical than at 60 ct/kWh). Consumer demand will also adjust. If your washing machine costs 3€ to run at midnight and -10 ct at 2 pm, when do you think people will wash their clothes? The same goes for charging their EV, vacuuming etc.

The sole remaining factor is heating in winter. Which can not be solved by better battery storage but rather by building thousands of wind turbines everywhere.

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

A prerequisite has to be smart appliances, and not in the current sense of a great way to milk more money from a customer through advertising and lock-in.

My thermostat, dishwasher, washer, dryer, car charger have timers so I can schedule them overnight (typical for cheaper electricity in the past, before solar). But other appliances don’t, and none can respond to less predictable changes in rates.

Do standard solar installs have the smarts to trigger appliances based on what they’re generating? Most of them are “smart” but they’ll only talk about monitoring and bill paying. I’ve been trying to find that out all summer but solar providers don’t know or are otherwise unable to answer.

I’m all for dynamic pricing of electricity but we don’t have the appliance intelligence to support it. That can take decades to roll out so we need to nail this down NOW

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

The sole remaining factor is heating in winter. Which can not be solved by better battery storage

My parents house used to have thermal storage heating which seemed to work well. Each room had what looked like a standard sized radiator that stored heat, much more cheaply than a battery: nothing toxic, nothing expendable, nothing expensive. Overnight when rates were low, the unit heated up. During the day when rates were high, we just needed a small circulation fan to keep room temperature consistent with almost no power use.

I just had to get a new heat pump installed and looked for similar functionality but it doesn’t seem to exist.

Thermal storage heat would make a huge difference in shifting power usage from heating to account for factors like solar energy, and it would be much cheaper than batteries.

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[-] remon@ani.social 4 points 5 months ago

But we aren't returning to nuclear energy? I wish we were ....

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this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2025
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