I recommend you use containers instead of VMs when possible, as VMs have a huge overhead by comparison, but yes. Each service gets its own container, unless 2 services need to share data. My music container, for example, is host to both Gonic, slskd and Samba.
There is barely any overhead with a Linux VM, a Debian minimal install only uses about 30MB of RAM! As an end user i find performance to be very similar with either setup.
Containers as in LXC?
Correct.
Side note- people will tell you not to put dockers in an LXC but fuck em. I don't want to pollute my hypervisor with docker's bullshit and the performance impact is negligeable.
There are dozens of us!
I wouldn't recommend running docker/podman in LXC, but that's just because it seems to run better as a full VM in my experience.
No sense running it in the hypervisor, agreed.
LXC is great for everything else.
as VMs have a huge overhead by comparison.
Not at all. The benefits outweighs the slight increased RAM usage by a huge margin.
I have Urbackup running in a dietpi VM. I have it set for 256mb of RAM. That includes the OS and the Urbackup service. It works perfectly fine.
I have an alpine VM that runs 32 docker containers using about 3.5GB of RAM. I wouldn't call that bloat by any means.
A fresh Debian container uses 22 MiB of RAM. A fresh debian VM uses 200+ MiB of RAM.
A VM has to translate every single hardware interaction, a container doesn't.
I don't want to fuck flies about the definition of 'huge' with you, but that's kind of a huge difference.
Translate? You know that a CPU sits idle most of the time right?
What kind of potato are you running? Also, how many hundred services do you run on it anyway, complaining about 200mb. You better off running docker on baremetal, if you are that worried.
Do you know how much RAM Windows 11 uses on idle?
WTF
I wouldn't do that as it complicates things unnecessarily. I would just run a container runtime inside LXC or VM.
I use one VM per service. WAN facing services, of which I only have a couple, are on a separate DMZ subnet and are firewalled off from the LAN.
It's probably little overkill for a self hosted setup but I have enough server resources, experience, and paranoia to support it.
I prefer running true vms too, but it is resource intensive.
Playing with lxcs and docker could allow one to run more services on a little beelink.
Yeah, with something that size you're pretty much limited to containers.
Edit: Which is totally fine, OP. Self hosting is an opportunity to learn and your setup can be easily changed as your needs change over time.
Am I looking at the wrong device? Beelink EQ15 looks like it has an N150 and looks like 16GB of ram? That's plenty for quite few VMs. I run an N100 minipc with only 8GB of RAM and about half a dozen VMs and a similar number of LXC containers. As long as you're careful about only provisioning what each VM actually needs, it can be plenty.
In this situation it's not necessarily that it's the "right" or "wrong" device. The better question is, "does it meet your needs?" There are pros and cons to running each service in its own VM. One of the cons is the overhead consumed by the VM OS. Sometimes that's a necessary sacrifice.
Some of the advantages of running a system like Proxmox are that it's easily scalable and you're not locked into specific hardware. If your current Beelink doesn't prove to be enough, you can just add another one to the cluster or add a different host and Proxmox doesn't care what it is.
TLDR: it's adequate until it's not. When it's not, it's an easy fix.
Absolutely. I actually have an upgrade already planned, but it's just that it's not because I can't run VMs, it's more that I want to run more hungry services than will fit on those resources, whatever virtualisation layers were being used. The fact that it's an easy fix to more a VM/lxc to a new host is absolutely it, though.
I have a couple of publicly accessible services (vaultwarden, git, and searxng). Do you place them on a separate subnet via proxmox or through the router?
My understanding in networking is fundamental enough to properly setup OpenWrt with an inbound and outbound VPN tunnels along with policy based routing, and that’s where my networking knowledge ends.
Unless you wanna expose services to others my recommendation is always to hide your services behind a vpn connection.
I travel internationally and some of the countries In been to have been blocking my wireguard tunnel back home preventing me from accessing my vault. I tried setting it up with shadowsocks and broke my entire setup so I ended up resetting it.
Any suggestions that is not tailscale?
I find setting up an openvpn server with self-signed certificates + username and password login works well. You can even run it on tcp/443 instead of tcp/1194 if you want to make it less likely to be blocked.
@modeh Id love to meet others who are just starting out with Proxmox and do some casual video calls/chats European tomezones to learn together /try stuff out.
For inspiration, here's my list of services:
| Name | ID No. | Primary Use |
|---|---|---|
| heart | (Node) | ProxMox |
| guard | (CT) 202 | AdGuard Home |
| management | (CT) 203 | NginX Proxy Manager |
| smarthome | (VM) 804 | Home Assistant |
| HEIMDALLR | (CT) 205 | Samba/Nextcloud |
| authentication | (VM) 806 | BitWarden |
| (VM) 807 | Mailcow | |
| notes | (CT) 208 | CouchDB |
| messaging | (CT) 209 | Prosody |
| media | (CT) 211 | Emby |
| music | (CT) 212 | Navidrome |
| books | (CT) 213 | AudioBookShelf |
| security | (CT) 214 | AgentDVR |
| realms | (CT) 216 | Minecraft Server |
| blog | (CT) 217 | Ghost |
| ourtube | (CT) 218 | ytdl-sub YouTube Archive |
| cloud | (CT) 219 | NextCloud |
| remote | (CT) 221 | Rustdesk Server |
Here is the overhead for everything. CPU is an i3 6100 and RAM is 2133MHz:
Quick note about my setup, some things threw a permissions hissy fit when in separate containers, so Media actually has Emby, Sonarr, Radarr, Prowlarr and two instances of qBittorrent. A few of my containers do have supplementary programs.
Thank you, that’s actually quite informative. Gives me a good idea of what could go where in terms of my setup.
So far I recreated my RPi DietPi setup in a VM but for some reason Pi-Hole + Unbound combo is now fucking with my internet connectivity. It is so weird, I assigned it a static lease for the old RPi IP address in OpenWrt and left all the rules in there intact and you would think it would be a “drop-in replacement” but it isn’t. Not sure if Proxmox has some weird firewall situation going on. Definitely need to fuck around more with it to better understand it.
To piggyback on the permissions hissy fit-
My aar stack, openmediavault, and transmission stack have different usernames mapped to the same uid and it is a pain in the ass. I "fixed it" by making a NAS group that catches them all, but by "fixed it" I really mean "got it working"
So be aware of what uid will own a file and maybe change it to a uid in the 1100+ range to make NFS easier in the future.
Yes! This.
I have one machine for network sharing storage and thus a user for login and r/w powers. The same storage is used by other machines to save the files, and so each autonomous user for CCTV and qBitTorrent needed to have the same UID as the Samba login, so each program had rw permissions.
And those containers had to be privileged iirc in order for each root (UID 0) to access the shared storage properly. I may be wrong though
Self-hosting be like ^^
I think I had issues similar to that. Perhaps the PiHole is running a conflicting DHCP server? I have my own set of weird issues.. Bad connectivity so I need a WiFi range extender, but it's not a true extender and has its own IP address, acting as a router sometimes and not forwarding DNS queries to the main router.. That, a lack of NAT loopback functionality, a lack of changeable DNS settings and the AdGuard Home apparently taking precedent in that side of the house, and I have a cocktail of connection issue bs lol. The main router can DNS perfectly fine, but if I'm connected to the extender I have to add DNS rewrites to AGH.. which works for most services..
The journey is largely about overcoming obstacles aha, and the reward for doing so.. Hope yours goes well!
As with most things homelab related, there is no real "right" or "wrong" way, because its about learning and playing around with cool new stuff! If you want to learn about different file systems, architectures, and software, do some reading, spin up a test VM (or LXC, my preference), and go nuts!
That being said, my architecture is built up of general purpose LXCs (one for my Arr stack, one for my game servers, one for my web stuff, etc). Each LXC runs the related services in docker, which all connect to a central Portainer instance for management.
Some things are exceptions though, such as Open Media Vault and HomeAssistant, which seem to work better as standalone VMs.
The services I run are usually something that are useful for me, and that I want to keep off public clouds. Vaultwarden for passwords and passkeys, DoneTick for my todo-list, etc. If I have a gap in my digital toolkit, I always look for something that I can host myself to fill thay gap. But also a lot of stuff I want to learn about, such as the Grafana stack for observability at the moment.
Thank you.
I guess I have more reading to do on Portainer and LXC. Using an RPi with DietPi, I didn’t have the need to learn any of this. Now is a good time as ever.
But generally speaking, how is a Linux container different (or worse) than a VM?
A VM is properly isolated and has it's own OS and kernel. This improves security at the cost of overhead.
If you are starved for hardware resources then running lxcs instead of vms could give you more bang for the buck.
An LXC is isolated, system-wise, by default (unprivileged) and has very low resource requirements.
Separating each service ensures that if something breaks, there are zero collateral casualties.
Replace cgit with Forgejo. I really like the software from Jason, but Forgejo is a huge difference
Only reason I am thinking cgit is because I want a simple interface to show repos and commit history, not interested in doing pull requests, opening issues, etc…
I feel Forgejo would be “killing an ant with a sledgehammer” kinda situation for my needs.
Nonetheless, thank you for your suggestion.
I would start with one VM running portainer and once that is up and running I would recommend learning how to backup and restore the VM. If you have enough disks I would look into ZFS RAID 1 for redundancy.
https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/ZFS_on_Linux
Learning the redundancy and backup systems before having too many services active allows you to screw up and redo.
portainer is cool. dockge is 😎
I remember trying both back when my server was new but missing something in dockge, can't remember what right now.
The Beelink comes with two PCIe slots, so I have two internal drives for now. Is it acceptable to attach external HDDs and set them up in a RAID configuration with the internal ones? I do plan on the Beelink being a NAS too (limited budget, can’t afford a separate dedicated NAS at the moment)
I wouldn't use RAID on USB.
If you only got 2x m.2 slots then I would probably prioritize disk space over RAID1 and ensure you got a backup up and running. There are m.2 to sata adapters but your Bee-link doesn't have a suitable psu for that.
I have a single container for docker that runs 95% of services, and a few other containers and VMs for things that aren't docker, or are windows/osx.
ext4 is the simple easy option, I tend to pick that on systems with lower amounts of RAM since ZFS does need some RAM for itself.
I do have an external USB HDD for backups to be stored on.
You have that new machine to play with. So do it.
Install it and play around. If you do nothing that should "last forever" in these first days, you can tear it down and do it again in different ways.
I have recently played in the same way with the proxmox unattended install feature, and it was a lot fun. One text file and a bootable image on a stick.
Oh yeah, absolutely will do. Was simply hoping to get an idea of how self-hosters who’ve been using it for a while now set it up to get a rough picture of where I want to be once I am done screwing around with it.
I've been doing it for a couple of years. I don't think I'll ever be done screwing around with it.
Embrace the flux :)
Install Proxmox with ZFS
Next configure the non enterprise repo or buy a subscription
@modeh Certainly no expert but would starting with setting up some cloudint image templates be somewhere in there?
Not even sure what that is, so most likely a no for me.
Template for setting up your new VMs - after setting up your first template its a few clicks and deploy for new VMs
It depends a bit on your needs. My proxmox setup is like multiple nodes (computers) with local (2 drives with ZFS mirrorig), they all use a truenas server as NFS host for data storage. For some things I use conaitners (LXC) but other thing I use VMs.
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