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submitted 2 years ago by dingus@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 135 points 2 years ago

A lot of open source software is written by people working for corporations. Red Hat may have started out as a plucky co-op but it's now part of IBM. MySQL is written primarily by Oracle. The fact that the source is open doesn't mean it's all volunteer work.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a massive transfer of wealth, just that for a lot of it people were paid a fraction of the wealth they created rather than none at all.

Sidenote: Here's a good article about how software developers can wage class warfare. Some tips are: Don't help other people learn things, never write documentation, and make your code as opaque as possible so your boss doesn't get anything from you for free.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 38 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Valve probably stands at the company who has "given back" the most in recent history (making Desktop Linux viable for the first time ever, mostly through gaming), but even Valve has corporate America skeletons in their closet. (Like the only reason they have a decent refund option now is because Australia basically forced them, and they had to change their flash sales for European laws.)

[-] negativenull@lemm.ee 29 points 2 years ago

Valve's bigger, and unforgivable crime, is their failure to release Half Life 3.

[-] andrew@lemmy.stuart.fun 9 points 2 years ago

The real Half Life 3 is the friends and software we made along the way.

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[-] dauerstaender@feddit.de 15 points 2 years ago

Valve still is a corporation, decently good at open source, but still a corporation that develops and distributes a lot of closed source software. Like the github ceo once wrote: open source the engine not the car, that’s what drives open source development for them. When many use their software and contribute patches and more importantly report bugs, everyone wins.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I don't hate Valve, but let's be real, they're not adding to Linux out of the goodness of their hearts: They're doing it to protect their profits because they see that Windows is quickly becoming more closed and has its own Xbox gaming storefront. It isn't about belief in Linux as a product, it isn't about improving it for everyone, it's about improving it enough for gamers so that Steam won't be eventually locked out of the digital games sales market by Microsoft. They're basically just buying their way out of the vendor-lock-in of putting their store on someone else's proprietary operating system.

I don't think Linux desktop usage jumping from 1% to nearly 3% equals "everybody wins." Sounds like to me a lot of fuckin people are still losing. Like 97% of them at least.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 14 points 2 years ago

I don't see the problem there. If someone is doing a good thing because it is profitable for them to do that good thing that's fine.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

You're right, but the thing is most of the time companies do horrible things to boost their profits. Like Unity in the last few days. Valve doing seemingly pro-consumer things to protect their profits is a rarity, and it's really only a side-effect that there's consumer benefit. They aren't doing it to benefit consumers, they're doing it to preserve their marketplace. It's a side effect that it gives consumers more options. Valve is an unusually forward-thinking company when it comes to its long-term viability.

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[-] akulium@feddit.de 6 points 2 years ago

I don't get what you try to say with your last paragraph. It sounds like you are worried that the poor 97% of Windows and Mac users are losing something because Linux is rising. Which makes absolutely no sense.

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[-] socsa@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago

The utter irony of this being a monetized medium.com article

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[-] Empricorn@feddit.nl 81 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

"Bricks are used in most corporate structures... Brick-layers are boot-licking capitalist class-betrayers!"

What a stupid take...

[-] lewis@lem.social 9 points 2 years ago

Yeah agreed, you can use that logic with just about anything

[-] HelloHotel@lemm.ee 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

you can use that logic with just about anything

wheat feeds the workers, which do work, transferring wealth to the top, wheat is a hyper capitalist class-betraying crop!

~~this was never not a Pascal's mugging~~ thats not exactly what I ment

[-] eldain@feddit.nl 68 points 2 years ago

Here is a list of the volunteers of Linux 6.1: https://lwn.net/Articles/915435/

Huawai is the biggest contributor, followed by intel, google, amd... Most volunteers are all on a payroll. Companies working together on an industry standard is still noble, though.

[-] doctorcrimson@lemmy.today 16 points 2 years ago

Everytime I go to post a minor correction comment, somebody else like you made a much better version of the same comment. This place is way better than Reddit.

[-] eldain@feddit.nl 9 points 2 years ago

Thanks, this place is full of dreamers and sometimes it feels violent to bring realism and nuance into their wonderous worldview. I'm happy my comment got upvotes, the first readers can downvote you to drown at the bottom of a comment thread. Good to have multiple voices like ours here.

[-] JoeCoT@kbin.social 67 points 2 years ago

On the other side, Free and Open Source Software leveled the playing field for software development by quite a lot. Before FOSS you had proprietary databases, proprietary OSes, proprietary web servers, etc, at every level of the chain. Without FOSS Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office would rule the roost. Without FOSS smart phones might've taken years longer, and have far less choices. Without FOSS the web would be drastically different. Without FOSS development would be harder to break into, and anything you tried to produce would involve 15 different licensing fees.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Without FOSS Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office would rule the roost. Without FOSS smart phones might’ve taken years longer, and have far less choices.

Uhhh, Google Workspace isn't FOSS and the only FOSS Office project that has market share is Libre Office with a whopping...1%.

Chromium may be "open source" but Google is definitely trying to make a walled garden, especially in respect to ads, and Chrome rules the roost. Chrome itself has plenty of proprietary software in it.

How is this any argument for something else? Your examples are weak, MS Office does rule the roost, and Chrome only rules the roost due to it being a Google product, not because of its open source bona fides.

Without FOSS smart phones might’ve taken years longer, and have far less choices.

Android is literally the reason bloatware from phone developers made a resurgence. It made modern phones worse than the shitty proprietary OSes driven by shitty phone manufacturers from the 90's to 2007. Google allows manufacturers to install applications you can't uninstall without rooting the device and risking your security.

How did that benefit consumers? To get a decent Android phone, you're paying a shitload of money, just like you would be for an iPhone (a completely closed source product) and iPhone at least doesn't have software bloat from your phone carrier/phone manufacturer.

Further, Google is literally attempting to use their web dominance to make it nearly impossible to implement ad blocking with Manifest v3. Their ad profits are more important to them than FOSS. How is denying the ability to block ads a "benefit" to consumers?

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

I agree with your points. But you can just download Android studio, hook your phone up in dev mode, and remove the bloatware packages as well as DT to prevent them from coming back. I did and I've not seen any carrier crap since.

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[-] treadful@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 years ago

Everyone can equally profit off it. And hopefully, everyone (that can) will contribute.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 57 points 2 years ago

So, don't mistake this as me telling you you're totally wrong, because you definitely do have a point and it gets under my skin too (that's why I believe licenses like AGPL and, dare I say, SSPL should be used), but many of these companies actively contribute back to the open source software they're using.

[-] vivadanang@lemm.ee 19 points 2 years ago

and are hardly the only companies using FOSS; everyone from non profits to miliary systems use it. this meme doesn't really work when you take the whole picture into account.

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[-] grue@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

SSPL

TIL what that is.

... and [whistles], that's a doozy!

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Side_Public_License:

[the SSPL] primarily replaces [the AGPL v3's] section 13 "Remote Network Interaction; Use with the GNU General Public License." with a new section that requires that anyone who offers the functionality of SSPL-licensed software to third-parties as a service must release the entirety of their source code, including all software, APIs, and other software that would be required for a user to run an instance of the service themselves, under the SSPL. In contrast, the AGPL v3's section 13 covers only the program itself (the copyrightable work licensed under AGPL v3).

I get what they're going for and I sympathize with the goal, but I'm not sure there's any software in the world that could comply with that license because it would have to release an entire container or disc image with nothing but SSPL software from the kernel on up. Does a SSPL-licensed kernel or httpd even exist?

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[-] ceuk@feddit.uk 56 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Sorry but this is such a bad take.

Linux is free to install, free to use and most importantly free to learn

What is the alternative? How many people who are now in great jobs would have been unable to teach themselves the skills they need if IIS or another proprietary technology had won the server market instead.

Something had to fill the space, would you rather it was a technology that created barriers for people with the fewest advantages in life?

(Also as others have said, a lot of OSS development is funded by companies. Linux in particular being a great example)

[-] Granixo@feddit.cl 33 points 2 years ago

That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

[-] AnanasMarko@lemmy.world 30 points 2 years ago

That may be true, but there is (usually) also an upside. Any fixes and modifications must be shared back. Thank you copyleft licenses. Thank you GPL.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Man, I'm so glad that the Border Patrol is using my tech to violently abuse refugees! It's extra awesome that they sent back some modifications! I love it when I get help from *checks notes... fucking Nazis.

This is a joke, right? Cool beans that the people who decided to use the code for nefarious purposes helped make it cleaner. /s

Seriously, that's really pathetic for an "upside."

[-] AnanasMarko@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago

While we might not agree with immigration policy and power abuse, it's hard to put moral limitations on who gets to use our software. While the example you gave is far from trivial.

The second we say someone can't use our software for whatever reason, that's the second the software is no longer truly free. It's same with Open data.

If you set in writing that your software can be used by anyone, then you also take away the power of those in high places to interpret the licence in a discriminatory way.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Negativland helped create a Creative Commons license whose purpose was literally that. You didn't have to give attribution to the original artist, but you were disallowed from using the work for profit/in advertisements/et cetera. The issue is backwards copyright law that says the only way copyright should be distributed is through ownership and capital. We need a copyright law that respects the original creators intent, if they don't want it used commercially/in government. Not all of us are Tom Waits (who famously refused to license his work for commercial purposes) and happen to have the money to fight misuse of our creations in court.

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[-] bouh@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago

I'd rather see it as having Internet, the backbone of a technology we profit a lot from, runs on free softwares.

That companies use it to make profit is the same as those using anything to make profit.

Companies are also using paper and pencils, desks and seats and all sort of things.

[-] bookmeat@lemm.ee 19 points 2 years ago

It was never unintentional. It benefits is all to have them use it, too.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 17 points 2 years ago

Tell me how the math works out on this one.

Because last I checked, Microsoft, Apple, Oracle and Google still are the biggest companies and their wealth rests primarily on closed source software.

I would think for the "largest" transfer of wealth, we would be able to pinpoint some poor exploited geeks coding software juxtaposed against some rich fat cats making money off of it.

But Linus Torvalds doesn't seem poor and IBM/Red Hat, while rich, is much smaller than Microsoft.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago

I agree with this take, but Google does stand pretty tall on Open Source. Android is technically the most widely used Linux variant in use.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

Sure, they all use open source to varying degrees.

But most of Android is actually contributed by engineers who are being paid by Google.

We could argue that $300K in San Francisco is still exploitation, but there are worse forms of exploitation in any case.

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[-] socsa@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago

On the other hand, I'd wager that any given person who uses Linux daily at work is far more likely to own a stake in their company than the average worker.

My Linux laptop is also literally my means of production, which I own. Karl Marx never predicted this.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago

He also didn't predict a class of people born with no labor to sell because so much of it has been automated away. How are they supposed to use their labor as a bargaining chip if they can't find labor to do to begin with?

[-] socsa@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

Actually I think that's kind of exactly what he predicted. Technological determinism would inevitably manifest the violent downfall of capitalism.

[-] onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 years ago

Marx wasn't a technological determinist though. He believed that a workers revolution would bring the end of capitalism. He even thought it would happen druing his lifetime.

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[-] mvirts@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago

We've got them right where we want them, they are nothing without us. Oh wait they have never been anything without us

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[-] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 2 years ago

A lot of the clients I do work for in the MSP I work in, this is half truth. Yes, a sizeable portion of servers are running a Linux based hypervisor, to serve windows VM's.

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[-] menemen@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

They are also who mostly finances the development of very many Foss products. So still better than closed source, as small companies and the general public can also use those products.

[-] MindSkipperBro12@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

Capitalism is when money.

[-] beteljuice@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago

Software is like a flame. Sharing it by lighting another fire doesn't take away from the original flame.

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[-] Car@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 years ago

Don't worry, it's like like anybody uses 10+ year old OS versions which have been EOL'd for over 5 years. Definitely not a concern since Linux is FOSS and you don't need costly contracts to keep up to date with the most basic of security updates.

https://www.shodan.io/search?query=linux+2.6.32-696.el6.x86_64

[-] Zeth0s@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

This is absolutely not unpopular. Free software buys more porsches to incompetent business schools alumni than windows...

Well known, sad and frustrating

[-] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 6 points 2 years ago

Goes both ways. They can use my shit freely, and I can use theirs.

[-] ladananton450@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

You should be aware that much of the effort of some big players like oracle and even microsoft goes into Linux. I am not aware of how this is for other FOSS projects but I would assume many companies have embraced open source. This may not be out of the goodness of their hearts but they definitely pour a lot of effort into these ojects and I think that is the beauty of FOSS, but also the beauty of the free market.

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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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