What are your thoughts on this meme? ***WOMEN ONLY COMMUNITY MEN PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT*** : WomensStuff

[-] Foreigner@lemmy.world 75 points 5 days ago

Lesbian here, so maybe not the target audience for this. However this kind of meme and discourse makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Like, really? Pedro Pascal is -the only nice guy- in the world, every other guy is trash? Too often I hear women speak about men as if they're inherently bad people, rather than victims of the patriarchy just like them. It reeks of "that's just the way men are" and "boys will be boys", except now it's being used to shame and admonish. Shame isn't going to change mindsets, it's only going to make people defensive. It's not as if men are genetically assholes, but these kinds of memes sure make it sound like they are.

It bothers me because I have a son who will grow up to become a man (at least that's how it's looking right now). I worry about what he internalises when he hears that people expect he'll grow up to be a sexist asshole, just because he was born a boy. I have to defend against that just like I defend my daughter when sexism is directed at her, because frankly that's exactly what it is. If I were told from a young age that the default expectation is I'll grow up to be trash just because I have a penis, why bother to do better? I'd probably also listen to the Tates and Petersons who make me feel good about myself instead.

I understand why women are angry and frustrated, they have every right to be. I've also been on the receiving end of sexist and frankly traumatic shit because I was born a girl. I just don't feel like it'll get any better by creating more division, more "us vs them".

[-] Skellysgirl@lemm.ee 9 points 4 days ago

I agree. Male and female have skills that are different. And just like women men can be good or bad. If we want equality we have to consider we do t get that via shame, condescension or derogative statements.

The memes cute but pedro is one of many good men.

[-] Arkhive 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Sorry to dive into the mix here, but I've got a kind of genuine question, as someone who is having to play catch up on my femme socialization. I thought the "it's not all men" response is sort of the classic incel defense? Like actually the safest approach for women is to assume "all men". The comparison I've had success explaining to men is "how do you treat a gun you don't know anything about?" To which they quickly respond with, "like it's loaded", and I can follow up with "right, because it could easily hurt or kill you." By this point most men are starting to see the connection. So it’s easy to complete the thought with, "most men could easily hurt or kill most women, so treating them all like a loaded gun is legitimately the safest option".

This kind of came up in a comm I mod. A meme came up with the punchline basically being, "women don't want to date fascists and want guys who punch nazis" and it got reported for "alienating men from leftist causes." Like actually if humor like that makes you feel like an outgroup, I don't think the joke was meant for you, and you might want to think about why the crowd you want to be "in" with finds the joke funny or relevant.

EDIT: To be clear, I very much see your point with your son. I would want to find a way to prevent the pigeon holing too. There are definitely ways to have these conversations without making men feel like shit, but providing them examples of healthy role models, even if the example comes from a meme, is not a bad thing. I know my pre-transition self would have wondered, "what does Pedro Pascal do or say to make people think this" which would send me down a rabbit hole of his support for his sister and trans folk in general. His just completely level headed take after level headed take on hot issues as if they have easy and obvious answers. He genuinely spreads love at every turn, which is so far from the default behavior of most men women interact with.

[-] oxideseven@lemmy.ca 10 points 5 days ago

It's weird... I like you comparison to guns but also I hate it. It really does make a point but I think it just enforces the bad generalization point?

NOTE: I'm autistic and miss the point sometimes (a lot) I'm more asking questions here than trying to claim I'm correct. I'm very open to the conversation.

There are lots of problems with it I think. Guns are tools. Tools used to kill and nothing else. Guns aren't capable of thought and reasoning and so on. Guns should be treated as loaded as a respect think, not a fear thing. Guns kill when people use them to kill.

Men are not that. Men can be so many things. Also I'd assume more men have never even come close to hurting or killing women then those that have hurt or killed women. Women have also killed men. Some women don't fear men.

Why treat things as an absolute when it's a complicated spectrum like any other. Generalizations are just bad I think... They just kind of lead to tribalism in a bad way.

My brother pointed out something that happened to him. A woman crossed the street to not walk on the sidewalk where he was waiting for a bus. General advice we give out to each other, right? But then he asked how different would that be if he crossed to street if a black person was waiting for the bus? I'll be honest I didn't have an answer for him. Like if he did that people would call him racist for making a generalization, and I don't think he's wrong...

What's different?

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[-] Foreigner@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

Sorry for the delay, I've only just got the chance to sit down and reply. To your point about incels, how would you feel if someone making a meme saying "all women are gold-diggers". How do you react to incels saying things like women are trashy and only want trashy men and not good guys, or women are weak porcelain dolls and wouldn't survive without men. Would your reaction not be that not all women are like that? That most women aren't like that? This is the same shit, the genders are just reversed. Is it any less true if the rebuttal comes from a woman arguing in good faith vs an extremist TERF? I'm not defending incels, but if they sound the same as someone making a good faith rebuttal, maybe it makes young impressionable men and boys think they might have a point. And if they're right about that, what else might they be right about? This is exactly how people get sucked into cults and far right groups.

I feel your example with guns (while still a generalisation) is different from this kind of meme because it's about appealing to empathy. This meme is not doing that, it's using shame to supposedly get men to reflect and change. I argue it's not very effective, and there are way better ways to do this. You share one example - appeal to empathy. I've seen memes praising men for positive actions they take (e.g. green flag memes).

This kind of discourse is also harmful to transmac individuals. I've unfortunately seen trans men being ostracized from the very communities they relied on for support as soon as they 'pass'. Once they look just like other men, they are seen as a threat and are unwelcome. If this kind of divisive language and approach only impact those doing harm to women, then fine. But it's not and it's doing a bunch of collateral damage in the process.

It's shouldn't be hard to point out positive role models without resorting to belittling people. Most men have strengths (literally) most women don't - let's talk about how they can use those strengths to be a positive force in society. I see way more jokes and memes saying men are trash rather than talk about how they are can be important and positive part of the movement towards equality. Just like the LGBTQIA+ movement would never have made it as far as it did without the help of our allies (and trust me I'm not giving them most of the credit), we're never going to get equality and freedom across genders if we don't work on bringing men as our allies too.

[-] Arkhive 1 points 3 days ago

Thanks for the detailed response!

I agree with the need to be welcoming to the men willing to change. I guess I’ve really only got 2 more things I’m sort of musing on.

The first is the role, if any, shame plays in motivating change. This is a tough one for me, both as a trans femme, and witnessing my mother going through the process of accepting me and by extension all trans folk. Shame played a huge, though perhaps unfortunate, part of both those processes. It took large swaths of the rest of my family getting good at name and pronoun shifts for her to finally start putting in effort. It took the shame of being left behind to motivate change. I’m not going to open the can of worms that is discussion of the role shame plays in my own trans experience at this time lol. I don’t have a real answer to anything here, just curious about folks’ thoughts on shame as a motivator.

The second (and longer) musing kind of builds off that, but looks at the linguistic nature of memes. I won’t go find citations right now, but there’s definitely research into how memes can be used to tackle tough issues through humor and irony and exaggeration. I think of it almost like ‘Adventure Time’ or ‘ Steven Universe’ both shows about young impressionable boys being guided into adulthood by a cast of people set on making them a good person. To be clear, they’re kids shows, they have goofy animation, and fart jokes, and just plenty of general stupidity. They use the lack of seriousness of the show to coax in people that are actively being socialized away from healthy masculinity by society, and get them learning to be better people. I think memes can have a similar effect.

Let’s say this meme gets seen by every single cis, straight man. I struggle to believe all of them, let alone a majority, would think Pedro Pascal is truly the only man maintaining women’s faith. So the hyperbole of the meme then gets people thinking about what makes someone make the exaggeration in the first place. What does Pedro Pascal do that has someone praising him like this? This ties back into the shame as a motivator point a bit. Feeling like an out group can be a good reason to learn to empathize with the in group. This happens in bad ways too, look at the invasion of queer nightlife spaces by straight folks. Straight people aren’t learning to empathize with LGBTQ+ folks, they just want to feel a part of the in group because we know how to throw parties.

I’m almost done, but wanted to play with your point about an equivalent meme. I think, in the right space the gold-digger joke could absolutely hit (femcelmemes, and the various 196s are the obvious examples to me, just general queer, femme leaning spaces). I also think a gold digger meme equivalent would lack the positive educational layer this meme has I mentioned before. I feel it amounts to the difference in search results of “why do people love Pedro Pascal?” and “are all women gold diggers?” Those two searches lead to wildly different parts of the internet, one of which is intent of pushing men further into hating women.

It’s super messy. Thank you so much for talking, and I’m still all ears because I do agree on including men in the conversation. I’m mostly curious about how that process should or shouldn’t have a way to filter in men that are willing to change, and willing to acknowledge the harm hierarchical patriarchy has caused, and that includes being able to laugh about it.

[-] oxideseven@lemmy.ca 10 points 5 days ago

I find this meme funny and generally light on the aggression, and more focusing on the praise, but I generally agree with you.

I hate that it's become normal to use hyperbole and generalizations to stack whole groups. It alienated the allies. I feel the same about ACAB and any other gross generalizations.

The response is always like ZDL posted that "you'd have to be stupid to not understand it doesn't mean everyone" but that's the same defense racists use...

The fact these conversations pop up in the first place. Making the divide between people bigger and more extreme just doesn't seem like the winning strategy. It feels like how the US treats criminals.

We could easily focus on praising good behavior without shitting on people.

I have brothers, I have a dad, I have some of the sweetest male friends. And them having to constantly second guess themselves and feel like they are public enemy number one simply for existing just sticks.

I would rather praise of perceived good behavior be the norm than aggression in general for bad behavior, especially if it's gonna be so generalized.

[-] Foreigner@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

Thank you, you were able to put the point I was trying to make much more succinctly and elegantly.

[-] Sombyr@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 days ago

Speaking as a trans woman: This meme in particular? Just seems like lighthearted fun, using a joke to praise somebody for being a good person.
But sometimes people take it too far, and the limit for me is when it's treated like there are zero exceptions, all men are bad.
I didn't draw that line arbitrarily. I have lived experience that shows the "all men are trash" crowd are far less likely to treat me as a woman, and more likely to view me as a now vulnerable man who they have an opportunity to take revenge on. Things like laughing at me for having problems they'd be supporting other women for. My mom used to have a friend like that, who laughed and gave me the classic "welcome to being a woman" every time I brought up things like not being able to go home for a while one day because a car tried to follow me there, or when disruptions in my hormone treatment lead to pain and emotional instability.

[-] Secret_Music@crazypeople.online 133 points 6 days ago

But I do understand why some men would find it insulting

Good IMO. Maybe men need better role models. I find it alarming that men in general don't find it insulting that rapists like Tate and dumb fkn meat heads like Rogan claim to represent masculinity.

I say, keep praising men like Pascal and shitting on men like Tate. Maybe the message will finally get through.

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 55 points 6 days ago

The multiple downvotes on this post and your comment is exactly why the kind of thing that lead to the meme being made in the first place

[-] Grimy@lemmy.world 39 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

You can see the serial downvoters on https://lemvotes.org/ and then just ban them.

Sorry for posting in this thread as a man, I hope it is acceptable to do so in this case. I also feel the downvote brigade is a bit much.

[-] lena@gregtech.eu 30 points 6 days ago

It's so cool to see my tool actually being used by people.

After the exams in the next few days I'll have the time to add new features.

[-] foxglove@lazysoci.al 3 points 4 days ago

I was wondering, is your tool open source?

[-] lena@gregtech.eu 3 points 4 days ago

Of course.

Not making it open source would be a very shitty move. That reminds me, I should link this repo on lemvotes.org

[-] foxglove@lazysoci.al 2 points 4 days ago

awesome, thanks so much!

I was hoping it might be open source so I can run it from my local ...

Might I suggest adding a .nvmrc or using volta pin to pin the node version, I had to infer the node version is v24 based on the Dockerfile 😅

[-] lena@gregtech.eu 3 points 4 days ago

Sure! Btw will you be running this on your own server? If so you need a Lemmy instance as well, I assume you're lazysoci.al's admin.

[-] foxglove@lazysoci.al 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I'm lazy and was just trying to set up the tool locally, and I was hoping to point to a remote instance like lazysoci.al but I see it depends on a database 🤔 This might not work as I was hoping ...

EDIT: I see, the voting information comes from having a Lemmy instance, federating to the instance is what allows the admin to see the vote information (who voted for what, etc.)

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 27 points 6 days ago

It is women only but as mod I'm 100% happy with a man offering protective practical support. And don't worry we are used to the downvote brigade! Thanks for looking out for us ❤️

[-] I_Fart_Glitter@lemmy.world 25 points 6 days ago

Omg, I’m finally going to find out who downvotes every cat post

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 27 points 6 days ago

Dogs presumably

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[-] Secret_Music@crazypeople.online 24 points 6 days ago

Woah that's actually quite the downvote brigade for Lemmy. Not too surprised at this point though, unfortunately. They've been more or less behaving themselves since you started this community but it definitely looked to me like others had also tried and failed before you came along.

And the only comment that I've had removed here on Lemmy so far (that I'm aware of at least) was talking about the horribly lopsided stats when it comes to men vs women supporting the Afd and the ideological divide in general. And that was within like my first week here lol. So this is the impression that I have of this place.

And sorry for the 3rd paragraph but on the note of others trying and failing, feels like this community is picking up more steam daily. So I don't see this one going anywhere. Definitely not without a fight.

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 13 points 6 days ago

Thanks music, we've been lucky with the members we've had. And no, we won't go down without a fight! #Sisterhood

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[-] cokeslutgarbage@lemmy.world 27 points 5 days ago

I can envision three types of men reacting to this:

A) cool empathetic good guys like Pedro pascal who will realize this is a hyperbolic joke and chuckle a lil bit B) insecure, but not bad dudes who will get all huffy and respond with "#notallmen" C) scary mean men who will take great offense and yell or break things because this meme hurts their feelings but they only understand rage

This analysis, of course, is also a jokey joke and not a doctorate level dissertation, and therefore, it should not be taken too seriously.

Love you all, be safe. May we all meet a Pedro today.

[-] Okokimup@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago

I think this is spot on. Most of the men I've known would look at this meme and say "yeah, sounds about right." But I mostly hang with men who are secure in their masculinity and sexuality.

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 9 points 5 days ago

This is a truly excellent comment

[-] valtia@lemmy.world 15 points 5 days ago

I don't think we have to consider men's opinions on every meme we create, they certainly don't consider women's opinions when they post misogynistic memes

Having said that, this meme is very, very light ribbing, I think even a lot of men will agree that Pedro is especially attractive to women

[-] Plum@lemmy.world 48 points 6 days ago

This is the natural continuation of choosing the bear. We found The Universal Exception. And I truly don't give a fuck if a meme of a dorky pretty 50 year old man hurts someone's feelings.

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 30 points 6 days ago

17 minutes up and your comments been downvoted twice... Lord almighty that's fast. Lemmy isn't a good place for feminism...

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[-] h3mlocke@lemm.ee 5 points 4 days ago

Cringe post.

[-] Aksamit@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 days ago

It's excruciating how so many people have missed point of this light hearted meme about a seemingly nice man, and turned it into a bunch of virtue signaling negativity.

This is exactly why I left tumblr.

[-] bitMasque@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago

[removed by mod]

[-] foxglove@lazysoci.al 2 points 4 days ago

Thanks for your comment, but unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment. Hope you understand 💛

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[-] Schumus@lemmy.world 25 points 6 days ago

I will never not upvote Pedro...

[-] LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al 16 points 6 days ago

Yep he's the Internet daddy I bloody love him

[-] Schumus@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago

Especially after seeing how he treats and speaks about his sister... he's what we would call a "Goldschatz" in german... He's precious

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[-] ZDL@ttrpg.network 14 points 5 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

[removed by mod]

[-] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 18 points 6 days ago

Eh, I get vaguely lesbiphobic vibes from that image, but I don't think it's intentional so I'll give it a pass. Also I prefer glorifying David Tennant.

Pedro Pascal seems like a supportive sweetheart. Meanwhile it seems like David Tennant is the supporter who woke up and chose violence. Also he was really hot as Crowley, ngl. Sucks about Gaiman, Good Omens had some really strong queer vibes.

[-] Lumelore 17 points 6 days ago

Pedro's sister is trans and he seems to be quite supportive of her. It'd be weird for him to be lesbiphobic but not transphobic. I don't think I've ever even heard of someone that is.

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[-] insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

I read it as just another fun celebration of a lovely man while also showing the boys a lovely role model.