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Every year they try to push this same shit with a new name. One day there will be a reichstag fire and it will be passed.
So fucking transparant, yet I don't see a way to stop them.
The rough quote is, we have to win against this every time. They only have to win once.
Pretty straightforward: join anarchist groups like the ccc and the fau, vote radical left and tell everyone you know to do the exact same. It already helps in some areas, just keep doing it.
And how do you ensure that the "radical left" doesn't support surveillance measures? Not like the ideology has a good track record on that matter.
You mean like every other government? I dont. Radical leftists stand for human rights. Of course there is a chance that they get coopted. But every other political ideology does not need to get coopted to oppress people.
Most moderate anything government doesn't even begin to come anywhere close to the control of a "radical" leftist state.
What is your basis for "radical" leftists standing for human rights? Radical leftists are rarely liberally minded. I don't disagree that many left-wing parties stand for decency, environmental protection, and various rights - but "radicals" do not.
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I didn't know about those groups, thanks for bringing light to it although I'd be wary of voting radical left unless the alternative is only a right-winger
"Wary" of radical left why exactly?
Not in all cases as I said between a radical left and a right-winger you might be better voting for the radical left but why I say to be wary is because of the Horseshoe Theory
If you were to say progressive leftists is where I'd be all for
The horseshoe theory is bullshit to discredit anti establishement leftists.
The idea of radical leftism is that the capitalist system needs and breeds inequality and the state is its assistant. There is no overlap of fascism and leftism. There is a lot of overlap between fascism and capitalism though.
Dont believe stuff like this. It has been disproven many times.
Radical leftism means in essence:
- everyone is the same
- everyone deserves the same satisfaction of their needs
- a roof over your head, food and drink are inalienable rights
The only thing i would warn of is that just because someone says they are leftist, socialist, communist, anarchist, etc doesnt mean they really are. Examples: national socialists and anarcho capitalists. They're both just using the term and perverting the idea. Then there are radical leftist parties that are lost (like russia apologists).
Of course you need to make an informed decision but yes, radical left all the way.
Radical leftism means in essence:
- everyone is the same
- everyone deserves the same satisfaction of their needs
- a roof over your head, food and drink are inalienable rights.
Any progressive leftist would agree with those things hence why I'd be all for them and as you said there are exceptions in radical left where they shouldn't be taken seriously
Exactly. Its just important to understand that horseshoe is not a viable concept. Use specifics instead. No Gos are:
- russia apologism
- israel apologism
- science denial/esotherics
- selective exclusion from basic rights
One very helpful concept is the tolerance paradox. It states that tolerant treatment of intolerant parties will lead to them dismantling of the tolerant system.
- science denial/esotherics
- selective exclusion from basic rights
No true progressive leftist would be in for either of the two, but in regards to the other two it can become tricky to know
One very helpful concept is the tolerance paradox
Or simply ignore the gaslightning that tolerance is a paradox and take it as a social contract where both ends must comply, if one won't then you shouldn't take for granted the other should
Horseshoe theory is bunk because, when you drill down, all it's basically saying is that people who disagree with the tenets of liberal capitalism don't respect the legitimacy of a system based on the tenets of liberal capitalism. It's essentially a tautology, and not incitefull because liberal capitalists also don't respect the legitimacy of systems that aren't based on liberal capitalist tenets.
fair enough
Horseshoe theory is utter nonsense and not worth any kind of real consideration.
well you're entitled to your opinions but you don't seem to try to argue in good faith your points to favor your reasoning
to be fair to them: "horseshoe theory" is in itself a bad faith argument designed specifically to derail and disrupt leftist discussions...soooo...why bother with much of an argument?
it IS bunk, it's pretty obvious that it is bunk, and it takes up a tremendous amount of time and effort to constantly repeat just how bunk it is.
not saying you are wrong, at least in general.
it's just that this particular topic takes up way more space in online discussions than it has any right to, so i get the frustration - and unwillingness to explain something faaaaairly obvious - of the previous user.
a bad faith argument doesn't really deserve a proper answer: wasting time on it is exactly the point of bad faith arguments. that's why they so successful in the first place; they create no-win scenarios. damned if you ignore them, damned if you don't. that's why the right constantly comes up with new ones.
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The horseshoe theory doesn't apply to every leftist group. You need to gauge and research their backgrounds to see if they're authoritarian first.
horseshoe theory doesnโt apply to every leftist group [...] research their backgrounds to see if theyโre authoritarian first
hence why I say to be wary and why I say I'd vote but not in every circumstances though BrainInABox makes fair points against it
Radical right and radical left. You should be wary of both of them because they are radical.
- Radical plans often need to be enforced to be accepted
- Enforcing political will is authoritarian.
- I'm anti-authoritarian above everything else.
Ah, a "centrist". So how much killing of people is central enough for you? How much genocide?
The idea of "radical = bad" is a trick. It's got zero to do with reality.
Example: depending on where you ask, radical means entirely different things. Read about the overtone window.
That said, radical leftism is about human rights. It is about destroying hierarchies between people. In short it means: everyone gets what they need and does what they can. Or "food, water, housing are inalienable rights."
The radical right is about superiorism. White power, discrimination and ultimately destruction of what they view as "lesser" be it people who look different, have different ancestral history etc.
And you think its smart to compromise between the two? I suggest reading books.
So how much killing of people is central enough for you? How much genocide?
Very non-radical actions you asking me to support.
From all of that I get that you're someone who thinks it's left Vs right. Two positions, Two ends of a line. If you're not at one end, you're at the other and what lies in-between (if anything) is grey, cowardly, compromising, compliant lemmings.
..and you're telling me to read books? This is the most juvenile and laziest of political thinking. You need to grow beyond thinking anyone that doesn't agree with you must either be the enemy or a collaborator. At least get past one-dimensional thinking.
And it's the Overton window (not "overtone") after Joseph Overton, a US libertarian and free-market supporter. He came up with the concept to describe how think-tanks should manipulate public opinion to consider what was previously unthinkable, particularly in a free-market direction. Of course, that's all lost now it's become part of pop-politics.
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To the EU:
At least they give a platform for people to speak out and it's public, but yes disappointing although if you see the other cross-posts some are not straight talking about the risks other than just saying it's about mass surveillance or metadata collection which could ring less alarm bells for people reading it (i know mass surveillance should be enough but oh well)
True, that's actually a wonderful initiative and they should build upon it, the EU needs a public forum to discuss these things.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I wouldn't be aware of it otherwise. For what its worth, I left my ideas as feedback there.
Also, I would just like to point out that before lemmy (and subscribing to various EU communities) I was not at all active in voicing my opinion about such things as I didn't have any idea that it was even possible/how to do it. Lemmy as a whole has helped me become more active in this regard :D
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Its refreshing to see people care about this subject outside of privacy forums.
Im sure the agencies that do monitor us have stopped potential threats, but there is a fine line between this and having secret police.
" built-in backdoors,"
Good luck getting that into a lot of the open source tech we now use.
Simple: the open source tech is now illegal unless they can afford a full time legal team.
It's regulatory capture: the big firms get consulted by the EU and can design the laws to the detriment of competition. It's why now, for example, european cars are so expensive and restricted to a handfull of producers.
Alphabet and friends welcome regulation like this.
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This is to make sure VPNs have to retain data and zero logging will be illegal
They have been a thorn in the side of Disney, Netflix, Amazon and HBO for years.
Even as an American, this is terrifying. Everyone knows my country is shit, but I've always seen you guys as the gold standard and for this kind of thing to even be discussed over on your side of the pond is absolutely horrifying....
It's a specific group within the EU that's trying to do this.
Like those Project 2025 people.
This has widespread support under MEPs, accross party lines. It's only Germany and Poland that opposed it last time. (1)
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always seen you guys as the gold standard
In the land of the blind
If the bottom of the barrel is what you're trying to compare a golden coated shit is taking all the money.
Lol I mean, nobody is perfect, but you guys have things like freedom of movement (even between countries) and France and Germany pushing open source software forward for the sake of privacy, security, flexability and community. Plus, you guys seem to have a mindset of "until it's proven safe, it will be illigal" compared to our "until it is proven UNsafe, it will be legal". Maybe "gold standard" isn't the best term, but I feel like you guys have better way of thinking about the world
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This is something you'd expect in North Korea
(Europeans rather than Americans in this case, but you get the point.
It has nothing to do with Asia, but with a totalitarian regime. Such mass surveillance is what dictators do. I could also have said old east Germany, the USSR, Russia, the US, Turkmenistan, El salvador. It's just that I chose north Korea as it is currently one of the worst and most known today.
Except it's not what they're doing. It's what the EU is doing. Westerners just assume that they're always "the good guys", and whenever they do something bad the most they can muster up is "this is something 'the bad guys" would do!"
You're looking at something being done by the EU and immediately pivot to attacking other countries
Because I don't want the EU to change in a totalitarian regime. I want to be the good guys but I'm disgusted by our support of Israel, I'm disgusted by our predatory trade deals with developing countries, etc. So I know we're not he good guys. But I want to be, and I want to keep/make the EU a nice place to live in. So I do compare certain extreme proposals to countries where you'd expect certain things to happen, so people will understand we don't want to go in that direction. We should always strive to do better. But we also have a dictatorship inside the EU (Hungary) so it's not all happy days het either. We should just steer away from this instead of incorporate it into the entire EU.
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Data retention != mass surveilance. Data retention != built-in backdoors. Even the link summary spells out exactly what the purpose of the proposal is (criminal proceedings) and the intended objective (data retention standards).
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