Before that it was called feudalism.
Capitalism was supposed to solve the issue of generational wealth so that the amount of money you have directly represents the number of hours you worked regardless of profession or how much money your parents had
But people in power/people with wealth aren’t going to give it up so no matter what system you try, they are going to modify it
Communism remedies this by having no one in power. Unfortunately that is still subject to the above so we have many examples of countries that failed to become communist
Any social relation that exists is natural. The term natural is practically meaningless and is built on a fallacious idea that there is one true way humans were meant to live.
Also, natural does not mean better or worse than any other way.
The one true way humans were meant to live is free, it is the natural way for us to live when we're not distracted by capitalism. Not just because we don't see it, but because it actually no longer exists in the collective consciousness in any form it takes, at least not as a "reasonable alternative" to communism and more as something that must be prevented.
Oppression and slavery are older than feudalism, even agriculture.
Humans are just animals surviving however we can, like any living thing. There is no way we were meant to live because there is no intention behind our existence, other than our own intentions. The way we live now is just as natural as we lived 500,000 years ago because both lifestyles evolved from how our nature interacts with the environment we live in.
I agree with you that being free is a better way to live but I think that’s a different and more solid moral argument than speaking of how we were “meant” to live. The latter idea can smuggle all sorts of ideas into the conversation, such as appeals to authority, tradition, religion, etc.
KS Robinson addresses this in the Mars trilogy. With adequate aging suppression and some post-scarcity on a thinly populated planet, a movement of hardcore primitivism emerges, tempered by brushing up against the modern. For some, it’s still an instinct.
Even Alexander commented that if he wasn’t in his social position he might live like Diogenes, naked and wild. It’s an old conundrum, a million years of wild vs. 80,000 or so of settled.
Just because an author addresses it in a book doesn't mean they're right
Right about what? I don't think he makes any definitive arguments or assertions, other than maybe that some people are like that.
I know a few people who can be seen in that light, as marginally re-wilded. Rather extraordinary people, so I would not say they are representative of anyone else, but do illustrate the existence of the urge.
Hey LibertyLiz. Nothing to add, just wanted to say hi. I enjoy seeing your name pop up spitting truth. Hope you're doing good!
Similarly, the word "Humane"; if a human does something, it is human-like behavior. It is not synonymous with "good" or "ethical".
We define human ideals to guide us in most cultures, and in english, at least, it does reference this narrative quality to the word ‘humane’, as more human-like behaviour than behaviour that is bad for the species, such as cruelty.
How is capitalism only 400 years old? Maybe the term, but you can't seriously think feudalism isn't an extreme form of capitalism:
- private property: the land and even the people on it were owned by the elite
- profit motive: they had currency and it was hoarded by the royals and their kin
- capital accumulation: see above
- wage labor: slave labor
The same thing existed in roman times, ancient greece, and even ancient Egypt which had empires and kingdoms spanning 5 thousand years where grain and other things were a currency.
Humans have been horrible to each other for their own private benefit, greed, and just pure cruelty for thousands of years.
This is just an absurdly broad definition of capitalism. I mean it's so broad as to be meaningless.
Because that's not how feudalism worked, your land was yours as long you supported your ruler, who actually owned everything.
The definition of capitalism is that you have private ownership of the means of production, feudalism was more like a big Pyramid scheme or MLM, King owns everything, but kinda lends some lands to nobility those manage it and people on it and then goes down all the way to the peasants who also get some small land in exchange for working on their rulers land
your land was yours as long you supported your ruler, who actually owned everything
In other words, the land wasn't yours.
Capitalism and Feudalism are both examples of class societies, but are not the same. Both have had working and owning classes, but the nature of relation to production is different, thus the class mechanisms at play are different. Engels sums it up succinctly in questions 7-10 of Principles of Communism, but I'll only copy 7 and 8, as they are more relevant here:
Question 7 : In what way does the proletarian differ from the slave?
Answer : The slave is sold once and for all; the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly. The individual slave, the property of a single master, is already assured an existence, however wretched it may be, because of the master's interest. The individual proletarian, the property, as it were, of the whole bourgeois class, which buys his labour only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence. This existence is assured only to the proletarian class as a whole. The slave is outside competition, the proletarian is in it and experiences all its vagaries. The slave counts as a thing, not as a member of civil society; the proletarian is recognized as a person, as a member of civil society. Thus, the slave can have a better existence than the proletarian, but the proletarian belongs to a higher stage of social development and himself stands on a higher level than the slave. The slave frees himself when, of all the relations of private property, he abolishes only the relation of slavery and thereby becomes a proletarian himself; the proletarian can free himself only by abolishing private property in general.
Question 8 : In what way does the proletarian differ from the serf?
Answer : The serf enjoys the possession and use of an instrument of production, a piece of land, in exchange for which he hands over a part of his product or performs labour. The proletarian works with the instruments of production of another for the account of this other, in exchange for a part of the product. The serf gives up, the proletarian receives. The serf has an assured existence, the proletarian has not. The serf is outside competition, the proletarian is in it. The serf frees himself either by running away to the town and there becoming a handicraftsman or by giving his landlord money instead of labour and products, thereby becoming a free tenant; or by driving his feudal lord away and himself becoming a proprietor, in short, by entering in one way or another into the owning class and into competition. The proletarian frees himself by abolishing competition, private property and all class differences.
You should check out mutual aid by pyotr kropotkin. Sure, we have several thousand years of history of the carnage of states and individuals. Thing is, humans have existed for over 100,000 years -- there is a lot missing about what our "natural" state is. Archaeological and anthropological evidence show that human societies exist on a wide spectrum of peaceful --> violent, stateless --> hierarchical.
Your implication that humans are inherently bad, cruel, competing for resources, etc. is a vestige of theory from Thomas Hobbes, connected to social darwinism, that completely ignores the observed behavior of a vast amount of animal and insect species, wherein individuals aid one another out of no apparent immediate benefit to themselves.
A somewhat famous passage from kropotkin to illustrate:
[...] to reduce animal sociability to love and sympathy means to reduce its generality and its importance, just as human ethics based upon love and personal sympathy only have contributed to narrow the comprehension of the moral feeling as a whole. It is not love to my neighbour — whom I often do not know at all — which induces me to seize a pail of water and to rush towards his house when I see it on fire; it is a far wider, even though more vague feeling or instinct of human solidarity and sociability which moves me. So it is also with animals. It is not love, and not even sympathy (understood in its proper sense) which induces a herd of ruminants or of horses to form a ring in order to resist an attack of wolves; not love which induces wolves to form a pack for hunting; not love which induces kittens or lambs to play, or a dozen of species of young birds to spend their days together in the autumn; and it is neither love nor personal sympathy which induces many thousand fallow-deer scattered over a territory as large as France to form into a score of separate herds, all marching towards a given spot, in order to cross there a river. It is a feeling infinitely wider than love or personal sympathy — an instinct that has been slowly developed among animals and men in the course of an extremely long evolution, and which has taught animals and men alike the force they can borrow from the practice of mutual aid and support, and the joys they can find in social life.
This isn't to endorse primitivism, or Rousseau's state of nature. I'm not sure I would even say "humans are innately good," necessarily. Clearly, we have the potential for evil. But the idea that capitalist competition, social darwinism, humans reveling in their own private benefit, greed, and cruelty, is natural, is both played out and nonsensical.
edit: Source https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution
The problem with that passage is that every behaviour that he attributes to 'a feeling infinitely wider than love or personal sympathy' can more readily and obviously be seen in terms of self preservation and individual gain. This is not to say that every instance of these behaviours in every species is selfish, but his explainations do nothing to disprove that. Neighbour's house on fire? Put it out before it spreads here. Ruminants being attacked by wolves? Form a circle to protect your sides and rear. Woleves hunting as a pack? More members bring down bigger prey so there's more food per member, and less personal risk of injury. Kittens play to hone their hunting abilities, and to start to form dominancy hierarchies. Birds flock together because it's more efficient to follow another bird, rather than lead. And so on.
None of this is some gotcha that proves that cooperation is somehow unnatural, or that selfishness is more natural, but to assume the opposite is hopelessly naive.
More cooperation and working towards the common good would do wonders for the human race, but it's fighting against a lot of instincts, both old and new.
I don't really agree, but I do understand where you're coming from. I do think you're right in pointing out that all these behaviors give the individual a more likely chance to survive, but I also think that is exactly Kropotkin's point. That these social behaviors were naturally selected, the individuals who displayed them were more likely to survive.
But where I disagree is in the fact that the individuals themselves aren't consciously thinking, "this is what will give me, an individual, the best chance to survive." You see what I mean? For example, the horses forming a circle around the young to defend from wolves -- they're not thinking, "I need to protect myself." They have an instinct to protect the young, so the young go in the center. If an adult were purely individualistic, it would enter the circle, itself, right? Or if my neighbors house is on fire, what's most advantageous for me as an individual is to run away, but I feel compelled to yell for help. Or kittens -- wouldn't they be better off as individuals if they just killed off their siblings, so that they could have a full mouth? But no, being raised with other young kittens allows them to learn to hunt through play, to groom themselves, and to learn socialization tactics and reading body language, which further increases their chances of survival when encountering other cats as adults.
So yeah, you're totally right in a sense, animals act in these ways because their ancestors passed on the genes that predisposed them to acting this way, and those behaviors make them more likely to survive because they (the behaviors) made their ancestors more likely to survive. See what I'm getting at? Kropotkin's point is that it is evolutionarily advantageous to engage in social activity and cooperation.
I totally buy it, personally. You ever think about why we blush involuntarily? Or why we feel so wretched when we think we haven't been accepted socially? Why it feels good to just help someone, or when we wince when we see someone else in pain? We're social animals, built to socialize. I mean, we all speak a language! We naturally are compelled to talk baby-talk at babies. We touch each other, even in platonic, non sexual ways. These social behaviors are rewarded because they helped us survive, yes, but we don't think about them as actions we take to increase our chance of survival. We do them because they feel good, because they're supposed to.
inb4 "capitalism is just markets and those existed for 5 billions years. Checkmate"
Wrong, capitalism when government doesn't do stuff. Naturally socialism is when government does stuff, and when government does a lot of stuff its communism.
/s
There are quite a few of those over on the Lemmy.ml version of this post.
Yep, being self serving is a part of human nature. No shit, it's the only reason we still exist.
1.) Assuming that's truly innate, why should we uphold a system that incentivizes and rewards self serving behaviors with more power?
2.) I would argue a much more genuine claim to why we still exist is actually our communal nature.
Alles Gute lieber Herr Marx!! <3
(ger.: best wishes to u dear mistr marx!! <3)
Both communism and capitalism are naturally occurring in the animal kingdom in a reductive state. Communism is just more sustainable.
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