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submitted 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) by zaxvenz@lemm.ee to c/news@lemmy.world

The foundation of the new policy is that New York state will be able to authorize first responders to forcibly hospitalize mentally ill New Yorkers who cannot meet their own basic needs such as food, shelter or medical care.

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[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 67 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Involuntary psychiatry is a violent practice that strips its victims of all human rights and effectively all due process. It is an unimaginable horror that can possibly lead to coercive psychiatry or medicalized rape.

“who appear to be mentally ill and who display an inability to meet basic living needs” could be taken against their will to a hospital for a psychiatric evaluation.

Not being able to provide for your needs is not mental illness. An appearance of mental illness is not proof that somebody needs involuntary commitment. First responders are not equipped to diagnose mental illness - this is a stripping of rights and imprisonment.

If somebody is unable to provide for their needs, give them the ability to do so. Provide food, real housing, actual medical care, and an option for outpatient mental health care for them to recover if they are not in crisis.

I understand some people are severely mentally ill, are in crisis, and are a DANGER to themselves and others and need care ASAP, but this is just targeting impoverished individuals, who may be homeless, based on what is effectively hearsay.

We can do better than this as a society.

[-] cattywampas@lemm.ee 32 points 4 days ago

It does bring up a tough question though: what do we do with people who need treatment but refuse to accept it?

[-] smayonak@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Involuntary commitment decisions have to be made by a someone with medical or psychological training. In the past people were disappeared (there's a movie about it called "The Changeling").

But I think we need to make addiction one of the mental conditions that should lead to temporary mandatory rehab. I don't think addiction is something people choose to be afflicted with and if there's a chance they could be successfully treated it might be something they will look back on with some posititivity.

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 11 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Find a way of treating them and helping them to adjust to society without the use of coercion or a violation of their rights. That means giving them real legal representation, giving them access to courts that are open to public observation (mental health courts are NOT sufficient), giving them access to second opinions, and exhausting social supports (e.g. housing them in a safe environment) without imprisoning them.

The bar for being declared incompetent and unable to consent to treatment (which leads to forced psychiatry) is not high enough. Even coming from a psychiatrist, it is effectively hearsay in my opinion. There is not enough due process and outside oversight.

There are real side effects to psychiatry - it's called iatrogenic illness. When somebody is in crisis, what do they prescribe? They prescribe powerful drugs, usually neuroleptics. For example, tardive dyskinesia can affect up to 20% of people who take neuroleptics. It could be permanent - look up YT videos of those afflicted. It's easy to stereotype somebody as mentally ill if they develop TD.

It could be that somebody reacts nicely to the drugs they are prescribed. But what happens when they are released and can't afford treatment or become non-compliant with treatment? It can lead to disastrous withdrawal and terrible side effects, that can result in more hospitalization or a worsening of their illness.

Knowing that, why would you take away somebody's ability to not consent to treatment? Why can't we give them access to intensive therapy, that they consent to, that properly addresses the root causes of their illness and inability to care for themselves? Why do we treat traumatized individuals by inflicting MORE trauma on them? Being kidnapped, imprisoned, and medically raped is traumatizing. Why are individuals not given the option to not consent to medication, but only consent to therapy?

I invite you to look at Soteria Houses, which is a different model of care, that successfully achieves remission in those that are experiencing first-episode psychosis/schizophrenia. If they can achieve remission with little to no psychiatric medication (and likely no life-long prescriptions) in a severe illness, without coercion or locked doors, why don't we give more people the chance to experience that? What if they have the capacity to heal in a supportive environment that doesn't strip them of their rights - an environment that respects their will and autonomy?

[-] cattywampas@lemm.ee 13 points 3 days ago

Find a way of treating them and helping them to adjust to society without the use of coercion

But this is what I'm asking - what happens to those who will never accept help without coercion?

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

If they are actively violent and have committed a crime, hold them until their (expedited) court date (while providing them the option to explore support/therapy and/or access to spiritual counselors), record examinations by psychiatrists/perform them with outside/impartial observation, give the accused legal representation, and let publicly observable courts decide their fate. The option of a jury, witness/family/etc. testimony, and second opinions is imperative to their human rights.

If they have committed no crime (homelessness or being unable to provide for your needs are not crimes), are not violent, and are not a direct threat to themselves or others (and there is no concrete evidence that they will be) - there's nothing you should be able to do to violate their will.

In the latter situation, the best you can do is try to earn their trust and ensure they are provided an environment where they feel safe - providing them with every social support and alternative that they should be entitled to explore for their betterment.

[-] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 7 points 3 days ago

"Let them die on the streets" is your answer, apparently.

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

If you read my initial comment in the thread, you would have seen me saying this:

If somebody is unable to provide for their needs, give them the ability to do so. Provide food, real housing, actual medical care, and an option for outpatient mental health care for them to recover if they are not in crisis.

Even in the comment you are responding to I said this:

In the latter situation, the best you can do is try to earn their trust and ensure they are provided an environment where they feel safe - providing them with every social support and alternative that they should be entitled to explore for their betterment.

I meant housing.

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[-] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 4 points 3 days ago

But what happens when they are released and can’t afford treatment or become non-compliant with treatment?

So you might say that they cannot meet their own basic needs?

I'm sorry but you can't just let all mentally ill people go free to do whatever they want, and you definitely can't just throw money and houses at them and expect the problem to go away. That's not how mental illness works. You might not like it, but there are people with mental illnesses who either need someone to be a full time carer for them - and that is either a friend/family member/care worker, or it's in an institution. The other option is you just let them die on the streets, maybe killing some other people along the way.

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

I’m sorry but you can’t just let all mentally ill people go free to do whatever they want

This is a free society. There is no due process or evidence before they are kidnapped in this instance.

I’m sorry but you can’t just let all mentally ill people go free to do whatever they want, and you definitely can’t just throw money and houses at them and expect the problem to go away.

No money is thrown at them before they get to be in the situation they are in. They are homeless because they lack funds. They cannot afford insurance or reliably access medical care. If there are public services available to them, they may not know they have access to them, or they may be under-served by them.

You might not like it, but there are people with mental illnesses who either need someone to be a full time carer for them

I have suggested multiple times that they be given all social supports that are available to them. If they require that, they should be given that option.

The other option is you just let them die on the streets, maybe killing some other people along the way.

Your characterization of people suffering from mental illness or homeless people in general being violent is not reflected by the facts. People with schizophrenia are more likely to be the VICTIMS of a crime, than be the perpetrator.

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[-] NarrativeBear@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

I have been asking that question my whole life, and even more so now with certain politicians and governmental figures.

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[-] peteyestee@feddit.org 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

And then there is gangstalking... The purpose to make people look insane when they are just regular people. Just because they may know something you don't want them to know.

It's psychological warfare. And it goes deep.

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[-] Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org 10 points 3 days ago

Thank goodness. Ever since we got rid of the asylums, things have been going downhill, and I'm glad to see that someone's getting sense back.

[-] superniceperson@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 days ago

Jail isn't better, and this will be used to hunt the poor even more extensively, not just the homeless. A day late on your rent and keep your apartment messy? Congrats, you get a nice vacation under this proposal.

[-] Artyom@lemm.ee 4 points 3 days ago

Jail and asylums are very different. Jail is a tool for incarceration, it gives us systematic racism. Asylums are for crazy shit, it gives us LORE.

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[-] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 6 points 3 days ago

This seems like it's a very, very good thing.....so lets see how people on here spin it as something absolutely deplorable.

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Impoverishment and homelessness are issues that society, and capitalism at large, refuse to address with real solutions. Those solutions are too expensive to those that make policy.

A housing crisis, a depression of wages and rise in cost of living, inaccessibility of timely and cost-efficient health care interventions (mental or otherwise), inaccessibility of drug rehabilitation and a system that punishes drug use criminally, and having no social safety net (to prevent such occurrences of homelessness and lack) is the recipe that creates the situations that these individuals experience.

The headline is not accurate, read the article.

[-] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 5 points 3 days ago

None of what you just talked about is relevant to any of this. The rising cost of living doesn't cause schizophrenia.

[-] M1ch431@slrpnk.net 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Nowhere in the article does it suggest that one needs to be psychotic or schizophrenic, only that they appear mentally ill to first responders. They are not able to diagnose this.

Even if you refuse to read the article, the subtext here on Lemmy reads:

The foundation of the new policy is that New York state will be able to authorize first responders to forcibly hospitalize mentally ill New Yorkers who cannot meet their own basic needs such as food, shelter or medical care.

There are economic and societal reasons for individuals to not be able to meet those needs.

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[-] Witchfire@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

In a vacuum it would be better. During a manufactured housing crisis that is only getting worse though....

[-] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 3 points 3 days ago

During a manufactured housing crisis that is only getting worse though…

I'll admit I don't know enough about the NY housing market to comment on this - what do you mean by this?

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[-] vk6flab@lemmy.radio 7 points 4 days ago

Can we nominate people? There's an Orange that comes to mind.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 days ago

He's probably behind this so he can send more US citizens to the camps.

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[-] lemonuri@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago

If YOU try to section me Mark you will have crossed a line and I will section you, so help me...

[-] FurtiveFugitive@lemm.ee 2 points 3 days ago

You've had your fun with the sectioning. There will be no more sectioning today

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this post was submitted on 01 May 2025
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