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submitted 1 month ago by ToastedPlanet to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 39 points 1 month ago

To everyone not reading this article: "working along side IDF soldiers" in this case means being a student at a university where one professor had volunteered for a short stint to be a medic for the IDF (because, you know, Oct 7 happened)

She got suspended because she outed him (though not by name directly) in an interview and opened him up to possible harassment. The suspension is questionable and we can debate the limits of free speech in this case.

BUT she was not suspended because she refused to work with or for the IDF. That is a bs title.

[-] ToastedPlanet 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

To everyone not reading this article title: "A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her"

BUT she was not suspended because she refused to work with or for the IDF. That is a bs title.

Reread the title, it does not say that.

She refused to work with a person who contributed to the genocide against her own people. He chose to be complicit in genocide. IDF soldiers are monsters and can fuck off. We should hand this guy over to the Hague. edit: typo

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

Is the title implying or not implying that her suspension is related to the fact that objected to working alongside IDF?

Explain to me how being a student is considered "working alongside" with a professor simply because they are both at the same school?

[-] ToastedPlanet 11 points 1 month ago

Is the title implying or not implying that her suspension is related to the fact that objected to working alongside IDF?

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

The title says working alongside IDF soldiers. It's not implying anything.

Explain to me how being a student is considered “working alongside” with a professor simply because they are both at the same school?

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

Because she is a medical student and he is a professor of medicine.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

So I had a teacher in HS that worked at NASA. Was I working alongside NASA scientists when I was 15?

Furthermore, the article never specified that she was HIS student. They may have never interacted at all.

I can accept she doesn't want to be affiliated in any way with Israel (good luck with that), but the title puts two sentences together where the first is false and the second is unrelated.

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

The title says working alongside IDF soldiers. It's not implying anything.

I like how you ignore the second sentence though to make a false point

[-] itslilith 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I genuinely don't understand what point you are trying to make.

He volunteered for the IDF. That makes him an IDF soldier.

He's a Professor at her medical faculty. That means she has to work with him to get her degree.

She refused to do that.

The university suspended her.

If NASA was in the habit of exploding babies, you'd've been well within your right to not want to have any contact with your HS teacher either.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 month ago

He's a Professor at her medical faculty. That means she has to work with him to get her degree.

Maybe this is an English issue, but generally students learn from, not work with their teachers. But again, the article does not actually mention he is her professor, only that they are at the same school. We don't know that they have any interaction at this school.

She refused to do that.

The university suspended her.

Except that's not why she was suspended. They suspended her for giving an interview where she calls out the professor for volunteering to provide medical services for the IDF. Since she was leading the campus protests, this was considered targeted harassment.

The title is wrong and misleading. A more accurate title would be "University student suspended for outing a pro-Israel professor in interview", but i guess truth doesn't get clicks.

[-] itslilith 7 points 1 month ago

Many students, specifically PhD students, also work for the university. I didn't say "work under", I said "work with", as in, work at the same faculty, i.e. they are coworkers.

She called him out publicly for volunteering for a foreign military currently enacting a genocide. It's a big stretch to call that "outing" or "public harassment".

And nowhere does the headline claim something different.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 month ago

What a strange hill to die on.

No where in the article does it say they work at the same faculty. You simply do not know this to be true.

She called him out publicly for volunteering for a foreign military currently enacting a genocide. It's a big stretch to call that "outing" or "public harassment".

And nowhere does the headline claim something different.

Except the headline does not say this.

Any reasonable person reading the headline would think the university is forcing her to work with the IDF and suspended her for refusing.

But like you just made my point for me, she was suspended for the calling out part.

I don't agree she should have been suspended, but the headline is 100 percent false.

[-] itslilith 4 points 1 month ago

You are twisting words beyond recognition here, and for what? The guy was an IDF soldier. How is that not "working along IDF soldiers"? It's not saying "working for the IDF", which seems to be your criterion.

Next you're going to complain that it says soldiers, plural, I assume? That would at least be a valid criticism in your quest to... archive what, exactly?

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 month ago

My comment is that the title is blatantly false.

It's already a stretch to say volunteering medical services for the IDF makes you a soldier, and yes it's a lie to say she was forced to "work" with soldiers.

But, let's give you the benefit and say is just semantics and the first part is accurate (it's not)

The title is STILL blatantly false because the school did NOT suspend her for refusing to work with this professor. The (arguably unjustified) suspension is unrelated.

[-] ToastedPlanet 3 points 1 month ago

Your argument is to blatantly lie. The professor of medicine volunteered as a medic in the IDF.

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

We can read the article. You aren't fooling anyone.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

A medic is a non combatant, but as I mentioned in the post you are replying to, I am willing to concede this professor as an IDF soldier.

I'm glad you can read, so please quote the article the following

  • these other IDF soldiers that the woman was forced to work with
  • the details of how the university forced her to work with these soldiers. Was she forces to deploy with them? Did she have to do research with them? Was she threatened somehow?
  • how she got suspended for refusing the above

Can't find these points in the article? Funny, me neither.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

Adolf Eichmann was a Nazi who organized trains to the deaths camps. People with desk jobs are non-combatants but that doesn't absolve them from actively contributing to a genocide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcdufLc3QSA

these other IDF soldiers that the woman was forced to work with

At least two professors at US universities have faced consequences in recent months after publicly expressing concern about former IDF soldiers on campus. The Columbia University law professor Katherine Franke said she was forced out of the school in January after bringing up the issue of Israeli students “right out of their military service … [who have] been known to harass Palestinian and other students on our campus”. She had also been speaking on Democracy Now!

Dr Rupa Marya, a professor of medicine and a physician, was banned from campus at the University of California, San Francisco, for posting on X about the presence of former IDF soldiers at medical schools specifically: “Med students at UCSF are concerned that a first year student from Israel is in their class. They’re asking if he participated in the genocide of Palestinians in the IDF before matriculating.”

the details of how the university forced her to work with these soldiers. Was she forces to deploy with them?

No.

Did she have to do research with them?

The school continued to employee the professor to her medical school. Medical students work with professors and other students. Her objection is to be put in a situation where she could have to work with him or anyone else who was part of the IDF to meet requirements to get her degree.

In response to her interview, which was protected speech under school policy, the medical school backed up the professor and not her. So yes, she could end up working with IDF soldiers at her medical school, conducting research even, if she wants to finish her degree.

Mohammad’s remarks on the program drew complaints from the professor – who she did not name – and a dean, who has since left Emory. The professor told the medical school he didn’t feel safe, as Mohammad’s interview could expose him and his family to harassment. He asked medical school administrators to investigate her for violating the school’s code of conduct.

Later that month, the open expression committee released a report of its own: according to its independent investigation, the content of Mohammad’s interview was protected by Emory’s policy on free expression. In fact, the committee said, the school of medicine had violated Emory’s policy on open expression by conducting the investigation in the way it did.

Nemenman wrote in the report that, by ignoring the committee, the school of medicine “violated not just the Policy, but, ironically, also the ‘principles of professionalism and mutual respect’, which they had aimed to enforce with this Conduct Code investigation”.

Was she threatened somehow?

Caught between these two conflicting interpretations, Mohammad faced her hearing on 12 November. The professor and the dean who had accused her, together with a faculty adviser of the professor, “testified for my expulsion”, she said. “They wanted me to never be able to practice medicine … [and] one was spitting across the table, his face red, yelling a lot,” she recalled. They demanded she provide evidence to support her claims about the professor. At one point, the adviser screamed: “Who are you to decide what’s a genocide?”

Mohammad said she felt outmatched and that attempts to argue her case fell on deaf ears. She described the hearing as “one of the most dehumanizing two hours of my life”.

As Mohammad’s PhD adviser, the sociology professor Karida L Brown, was allowed to accompany her in the hearing. Brown, whose research centers on race and racism, echoed Mohammad’s description. It was “like a Jim Crow court”, she said. “It never felt fair, from the beginning,” she said, citing the school of medicine’s refusal to engage the open expression committee or consider its report.

how she got suspended for refusing the above

Seven days after the hearing, Mohammad was informed that she had been suspended from the medical school for one academic year, and would be on probation from the time she returned until she graduated. Her appeal of the suspension was denied.

Your argument started off with an accusation that people didn't read the article, but it seems that your argument wasn't informed by a reading of the article.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

Look, I'm not trying to attack you despite the fact that you want to keep insulting my reading ability.

I am saying, the title of this article is misleading at best, if not outright lying.

Your own reply is backing me up on this.

these other IDF soldiers that the woman was forced to work with

We are talking about this specific woman at this specific university who was suspended. Your quoted reply talks about other universities. There is no proof in this article that anyone other than the professor worked with the IDF, that she would hypothetically be forced to work with.

the details of how the university forced her to work with these soldiers. Was she forces to deploy with them?

No.

Did she have to do research with them?

The school continued to employee the professor to her medical school. Medical students work with professors and other students. Her objection is to be put in a situation where she could have to work with him or anyone else who was part of the IDF to meet requirements to get her degree.

So in short she was never forced to work with any IDF soldiers. She may at some hypothetical point run into such a situation.

Was she threatened somehow?

You are purposely misreading my question. Was she threatened to work with the IDF soldier or face consequences? She was not.

Was she threatened at some point during the period the article talks about? Probably.

how she got suspended for refusing the above

So no, she was not suspended for refusing to work with an IDF soldier because she never was in that situation.

I want to stop for a second and also point out, I am not attacking or even judging anyone for not reading the article. We can all agree people do not read every link in every thread. This is a very long article to boot.

But for those that do not want to read the entire thing and only looked at the headline, they would assume based on the way the headline is written that the university forced her to work with IDF in some capacity, she refused, and they suspended her. This is how any objective person would interpret the headline.

You can say well technically the professor counts as a soldier, there are soldiers on other campuses, the title didn't say she got suspended for refusing, only that she got suspended, etc etc... but these are all not how most people would interpret it and you know it.

You are upset about Isreal as many people, including a vocal portion of Lemmy are and that is fine. But that doesn't mean you can't criticize poorly written clickbait titles meant to enrage instead of inform. This is The Guardian, a supposedly upstanding news source. What does it say about them or the contents of this story when the first 2 sentences you read are so misleading?

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

You can say well technically the professor counts as a soldier, there are soldiers on other campuses, the title didn’t say she got suspended for refusing, only that she got suspended, etc etc… but these are all not how most people would interpret it and you know it.

There are probably IDF soldiers at the school besides that one professor. Her objection was not limited to only the one professor, that is the one example she had. She objected to working with IDF soldiers and got suspended because of that objection.

So in short she was never forced to work with any IDF soldiers. She may at some hypothetical point run into such a situation.

She never worked with IDF soldiers, no one is claiming she did. She is objecting to having to work with IDF soldiers.

Read the title again.

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

No one is trying to mislead anyone. Not me, not this article, not the Guardian.

I've been trying to point this out subtly, but I think I need to be explicit.

You aren't understanding the title or the article because you aren't reading it properly. This has nothing to do with the topics being discussed. This is an issue with reading comprehension. Read the through the whole thing again, from start to finish.

This isn't a comment on you as a person. You have made a mistake. It is impacting your ability to discuss the topic and the quality of your argument. There's really no way to proceed in this discussion in good faith until you do.

Sorry if that comes off as harsh, but it's the truth. Hope that helps.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

It seems we can agree that we are both reading the title and interpreting it differently. I don't think either of us will concede our interpretation at this point, so we can just leave it to others to look at this on their own.

Still, allow me to explain why I find your interpretation to be wrong.

There are probably IDF soldiers at the school besides that one professor. Her objection was not limited to only the one professor, that is the one example she had. She objected to working with IDF soldiers and got suspended because of that objection.

"Probably". Meaning: you. don't. know. this.

You have to make up the hypothetical yourself to explain the title, because it's not there in the article. You're trying to explain how the title is accurate yet you have to create the story for them. This is not a fantasy novel that's left to the imagination, it's a news article.

She never worked with IDF soldiers, no one is claiming she did. She is objecting to having to work with IDF soldiers.

Read the title again.

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

Let's try an exercise. Pretend there was no article at all and you only have this title. And then you were asked to explain the title based on what you think it means. Here are two of the fairest interpretations I can create.

  1. A Palestinian American was tasked to work with IDF soldiers but refused and was punished for it.

  2. A Palestinian American said she will not work with IDF soldiers and was punished for it.

Your interpretation aligns with #2, correct?

Except #2 is deeply flawed because, again, she was never asked to work with IDF soldiers and she was not punished for objecting to work with IDF soldiers. She was punished for calling out a professor and potentially opening him up for harassment.

Think of it this way. She didn't say

"I refuse to work with Nazis."

Instead she said more along the lines of

"There's a Nazi in our faculty." And the university was like yea you can't call our staff Nazis. Now people are going to witch hunt. Suspended.

The suspension is still dubious, but can you at least see where I'm coming from?

The most generous reading of your interpretation requires accepting another generous interpretation of the reason for suspension (that the official reason for her suspension is not the real one)

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

It seems we can agree that we are both reading the title and interpreting it differently. I don’t think either of us will concede our interpretation at this point, so we can just leave it to others to look at this on their own.

There is no good faith discussion to be had about the subject matter when you are operating from an alternate reality based on misreading the title and the article. There is no alternate interpretation, you are reading it incorrectly. It does not say what you claim it says.

“Probably”. Meaning: you. don’t. know. this.

You have to make up the hypothetical yourself to explain the title, because it’s not there in the article. You’re trying to explain how the title is accurate yet you have to create the story for them.

No, I pointed out there are probably additional IDF soldiers on that campus. If there are no additional IDF soldiers on that campus, she still objects to working with IDF soldiers plural. You are conflating her one example singular, with a perceived mistake, that is not there, in the title where it is uses a plural.

The use of a plural word is a non-issue. She objects to working with IDF soldiers broadly. Her objection was never intended to be limited to one professor, it was the only example she had. This is not a clever gotcha, you are misreading the title.

This is not a fantasy novel that’s left to the imagination, it’s a news article.

Speaking of fantasy, here's a fictional example. Where I object to eating rocks. I find one rock in my soup and I refuse to eat it. I say, "There is a rock in my soup!" You go, "Aha! There was only one rock in your soup. So you do not object to eating rocks do you?". While it's true I only found one rock, I still objected to eating rocks, plural. My objection is not limited to that one rock in particular.

A Palestinian American was tasked to work with IDF soldiers but refused and was punished for it.

This is not a different interpretation of the title. This is a different title. These words in this alternate title mean something different than what the title says. You have superimposed this onto the article.

Here is an example.

I objected to eating rocks.

I was told to eat rocks and I objected to eating those rocks.

These are not different interpretations of the same sentence. They are two different sentences. In the first I stated an objection without prompting. In the second I was prompted to a task and I objected to it. It is possible to object to an action no one has told a person to do. An objection does not imply a prompt.

she was never asked to work with IDF soldiers

No one is saying that she was. The point is that while attending medical school she could be put in a situation where she could have to work with IDF soldiers.

she was not punished for objecting to work with IDF soldiers.

Her objection was in the Democracy Now! interview. Her objection was working with IDF soldiers. She was punished for giving this objection.

She was punished for calling out a professor and potentially opening him up for harassment.

Mohammad’s remarks on the program drew complaints from the professor – who she did not name – and a dean, who has since left Emory.

She didn't even name the professor. She was well within her rights as per campus regulations to do this.

Later that month, the open expression committee released a report of its own: according to its independent investigation, the content of Mohammad’s interview was protected by Emory’s policy on free expression. In fact, the committee said, the school of medicine had violated Emory’s policy on open expression by conducting the investigation in the way it did.

But regardless, her objection in that interview, is what got her suspended. She objected to working with that professor because he is an IDF solider. Reframing the objection as a call out, regardless if the objection could potentially lead to harassment or not, does not change that fact it was an objection.

“I refuse to work with Nazis.”

Except she didn't call the professor something that he is not. She said he volunteered in the IDF as a soldier. No one is claiming that is not the case.

“There’s a Nazi in our faculty.” And the university was like yea you can’t call our staff Nazis. Now people are going to witch hunt. Suspended.

She said a member of the IDF is in our faculty. The faculty said "You can't say that.", even though it is true and not being disputed by anyone. The truth could open the professor to harassment. Suspended.

The actual dispute seems to be:

“Who are you to decide what’s a genocide?”

This dispute is what we would be arguing about if we were both reading what the article actually said.

The suspension is still dubious, but can you at least see where I’m coming from?

The suspension is incorrect even by the university's own standards. Yes, when you read the article you did not comprehend it properly. Reread the article.

The most generous reading of your interpretation requires accepting another generous interpretation of the reason for suspension (that the official reason for her suspension is not the real one)

This is again making a distinction where there is none. The official reason she was suspended is she made an objection in an interview with Democracy Now!. In that interview she objected to working with IDF soldiers. She brought up the professor who served in the IDF to make that objection. Regardless of how the school framed her objection she got suspended because of that objection.

In my example, I objected to eating rocks. What you are saying is, "You didn't object to eating rocks, you called out a specific rock for being a rock." In my example, I did call out the rock for being a rock. The statement, "There is a rock in my soup!" is an objection to having to eat rocks.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

Here I thought you were going to be reasonable, but the fact is that you refuse to see any flaw in your argument or see how the title can be misleading even when explained to you how others can read it. Do you really believe a sentence, especially one written as poorly as this article's, can not be interpreted in more than one way?

A story that leads "A woman objects to working with IDF soldiers" usually means there is a reason for her to say this. It could mean that she was put in a situation where this was the case or that she is simply just saying it. But simply just saying it is not news. I'm sure many many people object to working with IDF and no one will report that.

So you say, well it is newsworthy because she was suspended for it. Except that was NOT WHY SHE WAS SUSPENDED.

The reason for her suspension was not the objection. You quoted opinions around the objection, but not the actually reason itself.

. The professor told the medical school he didn’t feel safe, as Mohammad’s interview could expose him and his family to harassment. He asked medical school administrators to investigate her for violating the school’s code of conduct.

In July, an investigator released their initial findings: Mohammad had violated the medical school’s code of conduct with regards to “professionalism” and “mutual respect” by singling out and disparaging an individual during her Democracy Now! interview.

Read that please. She was suspended for singling out and disparaging an individual. Not wanting to work with IDF is not singling out or disparaging an individual, do you agree?

This finding was the basis of the school's punishment. It doesn't matter if you or I our the article don't agree with the finding. It was this and not the objection that is why she was suspended.

Where I object to eating rocks. I find one rock in my soup and I refuse to eat it. I say, "There is a rock in my soup!" You go, "Aha! There was only one rock in your soup. So you do not object to eating rocks do you?". While it's true I only found one rock, I still objected to eating rocks, plural. My objection is not limited to that one rock in particular.

I objected to eating rocks.

I was told to eat rocks and I objected to eating those rocks.

Except, in this case, we are in a restaurant and there is only one rock in sight.

It is not in your food. It's just on a table in the restaurant. No one told you to eat rocks. No one put rocks in your food. Sure, it could theoretically end you in your food, but it has not.

You loudly object that someone at the restaurant will put rocks in your food, even though they haven't. The chef complains because that this will make people think he is putting rocks in food. The restaurant asks you to leave.

The student objects to working with IDF soldiers when there is not even a hypothetical possibility of this to be true. Plus the fact that there is zero detail that she is even hypothetically working with the 1 "soldier". This all goes back to the fact that your interpretation of the title requires you to jump through these mental hoops just to make the title narrative work.

The more simple explanation is that the title is misinformation.

And that even if you disagree, more people would look at that title and think of my interpretation vs yours.

People look at that title and will naturally assume the poor woman was put in a situation where she had to work with IDF soldierss. Then if they read the article they will see they were misled when the 1 soldier identified is just a professor and there wasn't even a situation where she had to work with him AND her suspension was unrelated.

If my interpretation did not align with what others thought, it would not be the top comment in the post.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

I have been more than reasonable. A good faith interpretation was that this internet discussion is not even an argument about the subject matter. I gave you a free lesson in language comprehension. You have exhausted what good faith is left to be had in this discussion.

You are now lying about the article. She objected because she was being put in a position where she could have to work with that professor in medical school. This objection is why she was suspended.

The next day, she gave an interview on the Democracy Now! news program in which she spoke of the climate on campus for protesters. She also talked about an Emory medical school professor who had recently returned from volunteering as a medic in the Israeli military. This would lead, seven months later, to her suspension from medical school for a year, after she was found to have violated the medical school’s standard of “professional conduct”.

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

It is the school who is in the wrong. You are blatantly lying about their reframing.

Later that month, the open expression committee released a report of its own: according to its independent investigation, the content of Mohammad’s interview was protected by Emory’s policy on free expression. In fact, the committee said, the school of medicine had violated Emory’s policy on open expression by conducting the investigation in the way it did.

Nemenman wrote in the report that, by ignoring the committee, the school of medicine “violated not just the Policy, but, ironically, also the ‘principles of professionalism and mutual respect’, which they had aimed to enforce with this Conduct Code investigation”.

Azka Mahmood, executive director of Cair-Georgia, or the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Mohammad’s case was unusual because “we haven’t seen medical students targeted in this way,” she said. “You have a Palestinian medical student who specifically joined the field trying to understand inequities and the role of medicine in violence. To have to work side by side with an IDF soldier is exacerbating, and makes it uniquely painful for her.”

Your initial argument was misleading as well.

BUT she was not suspended because she refused to work with or for the IDF. That is a bs title.

Again no one asserted that but you. As it turned out, this was an intentional straw man on your part and not as I had hoped a misunderstanding. You intentionally mislead people who did not read the article. IDF soldiers can come and work in America. And if they work in your medical school, you could have to work with them.

You're even lying about a fictional example I gave you. In that example I found a rock in my soup. Plain and simple. There's a bowl on the table full of soup and in that soup I have identified a rock. If I attempt to eat that soup as is there is a chance I will eat a rock. The food inspector is shutting that place down. No one is taking you seriously.

The goal of that example was to illustrate how objections are commonly phrased.

It's bizarre to watch a person go to bat for genocide. You've gone to such great lengths to twist common language to in turn twist actual events to serve your narrative of an alternate reality.

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

This is the title. This is what happened. You've made your lies so obvious anyone who happens to read this far will spot them. I highly recommend you stop working to forward a genocide through this campaign of twisting words to legitimize silencing people. A person who in this case is both speaking out against and part of the minority targeted by that genocide.

There's no way to have a good faith discussion with a person like yourself that is forwarding such an agenda. What you're doing is effectively advocating for violence against Palestinians. Your goal is to silence this woman so the genocide is not derailed by her speech.

The nature of these internet discussions is that they are long, take time to read, and can in the short term be ambiguous as to what a person's actual position is. But by discussing topics at length it becomes obvious what a person's real position is.

I believe anyone who reads this far will see through what you are doing and object to it. Supporting genocide is wrong even if it is done in one of the most obtuse ways possible.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

You are not being reasonable or arguing in good faith if you have to lie about the subject to prove your point. I don't need a language lesson from someone who does not have the capability to even entertain that their reading is wrong or to try to see the point the other side is making

You are now lying about the article. She objected because she was being put in a position where she could have to work with that professor in medical school. This objection is why she was suspended

I am lying about the article by.. directly quoting the reason for the suspension written in the article. The objection is not why she was suspended. The singling out of a professor is why. I quoted the specific reason she was suspended.

You quoted the part of the article where the author deliberately muddles the reason so that it can be viewed like the school suspended her for her objection.

It is the school who is in the wrong. You are blatantly lying about their reframing.

I think the school IS wrong, but again you are accusing me of lying when I quoted the exact part of the article that states why she was suspended.

BUT she was not suspended because she refused to work with or for the IDF. That is a bs title.

I stand by this even if you add the word "objected" to it. Because thats not why she was suspended. No matter how many times you try to assert this.

I explain how I read the title, how many people would read that title. If you state that you object to being forced to work with IDF soldiers in the title, one would assume the story involves some detail of a situation where you were forced to work with IDF soldiers. When it turns out this was just a made up hypothetical, it is not a lie to point that out and call it BS.

IDF soldiers can come and work in America. And if they work in your medical school, you could have to work with them.

If you need to invent this narrative to make your point, your point fails to stand on its own.

You're even lying about a fictional example I gave you. In that example I found a rock in my soup. Plain and simple. There's a bowl on the table full of soup and in that soup I have identified a rock. If I attempt to eat that soup as is there is a chance I will eat a rock. The food inspector is shutting that place down. No one is taking you seriously.

The rock in this example is "being forced to work with IDF soldiers". There is no rock in the soup, just something that resembles one in the restaurant. There is not even a second visible rock. No one has forced you to eat rocks.

This is what it sounds like when you have a situation where the medical student objects to working with IDF soldiers when we have no proof she is being put in that position.

And by the way, I have not watched the interview and I guess you have not either. We don't actually know if it is true that she has stated that "objects to working with IDF soldiers".

That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

It's possible that it could just be the author's words summarizing the above as "objecting to working with IDF soldiers"

I'm ignoring the rest of your rant as it's just attacking me because I'm not pro-Palestinian enough for you. Apparently agreeing that the school is in the wrong is somehow still pro-genocide. Maybe if you can accept the fact that blindly accepting every content just because it paints Palestinians in a good light or Israel in a bad light is not a mindset, we can finally have a real conversation.

Let me put it to you this way. See if you can answer these questions.

  • Do you believe this author to have a pro-israel or pro-palestine bias? I am not asking about her objectivity. You can have a bias but still be an objective journalist. I have no reason to believe she is not at least trying to maintain objectivity.
  • If there existed other IDF soldiers at this university, do you think the author would have mentioned it in the article or left it out?
  • If there was verifiable details that the student was put in a position to work with IDF soldiers, do you think the author would have mentioned it in the article or left it out?

The end result is the author trying to make you believe that a university suspended a student for objecting to a hypothetical nonexistant situation that is not currently happening. When in reality, the stated reason for her suspension is also in the article and different from what the title is suggesting. That's misinformation. It's misinformation regardless of whether it is pro-Israel or pro-Palestine.

I pointed this out and people agree with me. If this view was pro-genocide, you think the people in Lemmy would vote it to the top?

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

You're not pro-Palestinian. You're a fascist. You managed to fool a number of unsuspecting people and you thought I would be an easy mark too.

Now you've tried to walk it back. You say you're against the university while still going after the student as if this is some neutral objective viewpoint from nowhere. You bullshit in your argument and ignore what's inconvenient in my argument. But you can't bring yourself to stop lying.

This is the truth that is supported by the article:

A Palestinian American medical student objected to working alongside IDF soldiers. The university suspended her

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

The professor is the IDF solider. She objects to working with IDF soldiers. I object to pretending you are arguing in good faith.

Fuck off fascist!

Here's your moment of zen.

Is Timothy Pratt pro-Palestinian? Let's look at how he chose to end his article.

Back at Emory, Brown, Mohammad’s doctoral adviser, said she was proud of her student. “She’s doing what she’s supposed to do – holding her field accountable to its stated ideals,” Brown said, adding: “She will be Dr Mohammad, one way or the other.”

Yes. And that's part of how he wrote an article that is true. He has a viewpoint from somewhere.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

By the way, I went ahead and looked up the interview on YouTube. It is on Democracy Now's channel and is from 11 months ago with the title Atlanta Police Violently Arrest Emory Students. Her interview starts at the 8:50 mark.

All she did was point out the hypocrisy of how pro-Palestine student/faculty vs how pro-Israel half were treated.

SHE NEVER ONCE MENTIONS WORKING WITH OR OBJECTING TO WORKING WITH IDF SOLDIERS

Are you finally ready to accept what I have been saying all along? that the title to your article is BS, intentionally deceptive, and clickbait?

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

This is her objection.

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

This is mine.

Fuck off fascist.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

Faced with facts you just go straight to the name calling.

She's not objecting to him working or even hypothetically working with him. She objects to the unequal treatment of pro-Palestine supports vs pro-Israel supporters. It's clear in the interview.

Well thanks for your time. I'm sorry and I hope your life goes better.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 4 weeks ago

Faced with facts you just go straight to the name calling.

This is her objection.

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

This is mine.

Fuck off fascist.

Look how this fascist pretends the facts aren't there. I led with the facts.

Just because you're pretending you can't read doesn't mean other people can't. No one is falling for the act.

https://psychcentral.com/health/signs-pathological-liar#signs-of-a-pathological-liar

lie indiscriminately about a wide range of topics

tell untruths about minor events

feel undeterred by the fear of getting caught

experience a rush when you get away with lying

continue to lie even when confronted with the truth

My gut instinct was that pathological liars must be miserable. But after looking it up I was wrong.

You must be having a great time. Go figure.

[-] NewDayRocks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 weeks ago

This is her objection.

No it's not. That is what the article says, yes. That is not what the source interview (which i pointed you to, twice) says.

She did not mention anything about working with IDF soldiers in the entire interview. Let me repeat that to you for the 1000th time. She just plains never talks about this.

That quote you keep using is not her objection to working with IDF soldiers. It is her complaint that pro-Palestine supporters are being punished for their beliefs, but a professor can work with the IDF for 6 months, and come back to work without any consequences. She is saying the treatment is unequal. Once again, she is not objecting to working with this professor if she had to. She is objecting to the unequal treatment of pro-Palestinian vs pro-Israel supporters.

My claim at the very top of this post is that the title is wrong. Turns out I was right in every possible way. Not only was the title wrong, but so is the article.

I didn't attack the student. I didn't give an opinion on her. I am attacking the author and The Guardian for being misleading.

I'd ask you to reflect and ask yourself, what would it take to change your mind, how much proof you would need before you accept valid criticism of the author...

but we both know won't.

[-] ToastedPlanet 1 points 3 weeks ago

You lied again in this comment too, multiple times. You went after the woman in your argument and now you're lying about that as well.

You spent the whole day getting off to lying to me because you're a pathological liar. I'm glad you got your fix.

I found a resource for you so you can get help. You shouldn't have to lie to people on the internet to get your fix. People could get hurt. Maybe this will help you ditch your fascism. I know they have all the best lies, but that doesn't make it okay.

http://www.liarsanonymous.org/

[-] ZombieMantis@lemmy.world 26 points 1 month ago

Pure fucking sadistic evil. Imagine suspending a Jewish student for objecting to working alongside SS officers? Modern Nazis conducting a modern Holocaust against a different flavor of semitic people. Death to them all, the satanic scum on Earth.

[-] ToastedPlanet 22 points 1 month ago

Death to them all, the satanic scum on Earth.

I was debating whether this rhetoric was effective or to easily misconstrued as antisemitic and then this other user writes:

In the end, she’s discriminating against a protected class: national-origin.

Dude, you don't go hard enough with your rhetoric. People unironically believe that if a fascist government drafts you into the military you simply have no choice but to genocide as many people as possible.

Fuck me, I am Jewish. Not in my name! The IDF is committing genocide. Fuck the IDF. Do not let them slide because they were just following orders. Holy shit!

[-] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

Discriminating against "National origin"? We're all from somewhere aren't we? If I refused to work with a KKK member do I get fired because he's "American" and the KKK is an American hate group?

[-] ToastedPlanet 6 points 1 month ago

According to users in this thread apparently. This national origin rhetoric is absurd. Fuck that and fuck the KKK.

[-] ZombieMantis@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

It's most certainly not effective, it was something I wrote in anger. Calling for the death of anyone is generally not advisable, and I usually don't, but reading this made my blood boil more than normal.

[-] dick_fineman@discuss.online 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Israel has conscription/compulsory military-service. There are exceptions for certain super-religious cases, etc., but pretty much if they were born and raised in Israel (i.e. an "Israeli National"), you can say they were probably required to be "IDF soldiers" without really having a choice in the matter. but "Palestinian-American medical student objected to working alongside Israeli-national. The university suspended her" doesn't induce as much rage. In the end, she's discriminating against a protected class: national-origin.

[-] ToastedPlanet 17 points 1 month ago

So your argument is that Israeli nationals should be absolved from any war crimes and/or genocide they participate in because they were just following orders?

Using national origin as an excuse for participating in genocide is peak genocide denial.

In the end, she’s discriminating against a protected class: national-origin.

This is the same as equating protesting Russia's invasion of Ukraine as xenophobia against Russians.

I highly recommend reassessing your world view. Your arguments are a one to one match with fascists arguments.

[-] dick_fineman@discuss.online 2 points 1 month ago

Uh, no. No it's not. If someone refused to work with anyone who was Russian, or who took on a non-combatant role when conscripted in the current war (such as a Medic), then it would be comparable.

I'm glad she was suspended. Bye bye!

[-] ToastedPlanet 3 points 1 month ago

This professor of medicine chose to volunteer. Anyone actively contributing to genocide is at fault regardless of their role. Patching someone up so they can butcher more civilians is deplorable. The most heinous Nazis ordered mass killings from behind desks.

I’m glad she was suspended. Bye bye!

What an awful opinion. Why would you support silencing people who speak out against genocide? Do you support Israel's genocide?

[-] smitty053@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me.

[-] dick_fineman@discuss.online 2 points 1 month ago

Four years into her studies, 7 October happened. After watching Israel’s deadly retaliation on Gaza in horror from afar, in January 2024, Mohammad sent an email to the entire medical school with the subject: “Palestinian blood stains your hands, Emory University and School of Medicine.” She railed against her fellow students and the school’s faculty for being “silent about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians”.

10/7 being an attempted ethnic cleansing of her side against Jews.

When Mohammad went into the Democracy Now! interview in April, she was already upset about what she saw as an immoral double standard. Months earlier, an Emory medical school professor, Abeer N AbouYabis, had been fired after posting on Facebook in support of Palestinians after the events of 7 October. Her post included the phrase: “They got walls, we got gliders / Glory to all resistance fighters,” a reference to the way members of Hamas glided over walls in Gaza to enter Israel and stage their attack. According to a report on AbouYabis’s firing by Emory’s committee for open expression, her post was seen as “glorifying” the group.

At the same time, Mohammad told her Democracy Now! interviewer: “One of the professors of medicine we have at Emory recently went to serve as a volunteer medic” in the IDF. That professor, she continued, “participated in aiding and abetting a genocide, in aiding and abetting the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza and the murder of over 400 healthcare workers, and is now back at Emory so-called ‘teaching’ medical students and residents how to take care of patients”.

She's an unhinged hate-filled Jew-hater. I'm glad she was suspended.

[-] ToastedPlanet 2 points 1 month ago

The only one unhinged is that professor. He directly committed to a genocide. He should be in prison.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

The penalty for refusing the serve in the IDF is around 1-2 months of prison time. For the people who refuse to engage in ethnic cleansing, doing 30-60 days of prison time instead is far far more ethical

[-] dick_fineman@discuss.online 2 points 1 month ago

Lol, okay. Whatever you say. 10/7 happened and Israel had a right to defend itself. Netanyahu has DEFINITELY gone way too far at this point, but that's another discussion. The response to Arabs trying (once again) to ethnically cleanse Jews, whereby Gaza wasn't completely wiped off the map (which would have been VERY EASY), is proof that this wasn't an "ethnic cleansing". At least, it wasn't at the beginning. It sure does seem to be turning into one though, thanks largely to folks like you who enabled the rise of Trump by witholding your votes over "Genocide Joe". LOL

Whatever, I don't even care. The leopards have many faces to eat, and such little time.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Jesus, what a way to justify generations of Settler Colonialism, Apartheid, and Ethnic Cleansing. Well at least you think genocide is "too far," I'd fucking hope so.

Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and has never stopped being an Apartheid. Zionism has always been a fascist ideology. Zionism is not Judaism. The leaders of other Arab or Muslim nations do not represent Palestine or Palestinians. There is no point to conflate either of those other than to justify Israel's Settler Colonialism. Land grabbing is antithetical to peace. Peace requires the end of the Apartheid. Unless the violence of supremacy and Settler-Colonialism ends, anti-colonialist violence is inevitable as people fight by any means possible for their survival, humanity, and human rights.

Quote

Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

  • The Birth of Israel Myths and Realities - Simha Flapan

  • 10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book

Ethnic Cleansing prior to 1948:

Planned occupation and the beginnings of systemic apartheid:

Peace Process and Solution

Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades.

Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

(Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ).

The settlements have created hundreds of isolated bantustans within the West Bank, preventing any two-state solution that may have been possible before the Israeli occupation in 1967

The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.

How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

Historian Works on the History

[-] dick_fineman@discuss.online 2 points 1 month ago

Oh...no. I'm not doing this Gish Gallup bullshit.

Jews are from there. LONG history before the Arabs came in. Jews were persecuted in their own land and largely expelled. Then when they were persecuted elsewhere, en masse, Arabs got mad about all the Jews being their neighbors. Kinda like white Americans getting upset about Mexican folks (many with indigenous roots) being their neighbors...and started getting violent.

Shit was a mess since then. But on 10/7 Israel wasn't attacking Gaza...it was unprovoked, brutal, and fueled by genocidal intent. THAT started this shit.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Sources by multiple Israeli historians isn't "gish gallop," which you'd understand if you actually read the sources

I already added a quick summary of the myths you repeat, which are Israeli propaganda to justify ethnic cleansing, genocide, apartheid, and Colonialism.

Read the full context if you don't believe me. If you're so confident it shouldn't be hard for you to go through the books and try to prove yourself wrong

  • The Birth of Israel Myths and Realities - Simha Flapan

  • 10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 10 points 1 month ago

Emory University is the name of the university missing from the headline

this post was submitted on 24 Mar 2025
206 points (100.0% liked)

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