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submitted 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) by inlandempire@jlai.lu to c/privacy@lemmy.ca

Mostly out of curiosity, but also somewhat related to Proton's recent political involvement, I'm curious about alternatives to using their services, open to suggestions for:

  • Proton Mail: anything that can support custom domain, email aliases, and email scheduling?
  • Proton Drive: not the most important, but interested in privacy first, encrypted hosting services
  • Proton Pass: anything I should take a look at besides Bitwarden and Keepass?
  • Proton VPN: that one's the hardest, it was really good, I think Mullvlad is the one most often recommended?
  • Proton Calendar: didn't really care about that one, but it was nice that it connected to Mail

My Unlimited plan renewed in December so I'll probably keep it for a year, it was nice having only one subsctiption to keep in mind, but I'm thinking of exploring other options

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[-] ArchRecord@lemm.ee 36 points 4 days ago
  • For Mail, I'd recommend Tuta (which comes with 15-30 aliases depending on the plan) and a third-party aliasing service like Addy if you need more than that. If you want a different aliasing service and are searching around, and trying to avoid giving money to Proton, avoid SimpleLogin, since they are owned by Proton. I don't believe Tuta has email scheduling, though.
  • For Drive, either use Tresorit, or use Cryptomator if you're okay with paying for OneDrive/Dropbox/Google Drive. (Cryptomator encrypts uploaded files & names so the cloud provider itself can't view the contents)
  • For Pass, I personally would recommend Bitwarden or Keepass simply depending on whichever one you prefer more. Both are good options.
  • For VPN, definitely use Mullvad. Simple, unchanging monthly price, you can pay via numerous different ways if you want to keep your identity more private from them (e.g. paying with cash by mail, XMR, etc) and you'll get an account number rather than needing to actually give them any information like an email to create an account. Do be aware it has much less locations than Proton, and most other VPN providers, although it's still quite fast and usable for most cases.
  • For Calendar, Tuta also has a calendar feature built-in.

I'd highly recommend checking out Privacy Guides by the way, since they tend to have good lists of alternatives for any other services you may want to switch from also.

[-] inlandempire@jlai.lu 4 points 3 days ago

Thank you for the detailed response!! I'll study all the options ❤️

[-] hellfire103@lemmy.ca 27 points 3 days ago

If you must:

  • Proton Mail/Calendar ➡️ Posteo, Tutanota, Mailbox.org
  • Proton Drive ➡️ Tresorit, Nextcloud, Filen, Syncthing, MEGA
  • Proton Pass ➡️ KeePass
  • Proton VPN ➡️ Mullvad VPN, IVPN, Windscribe
  • Proton Wallet ➡️ Cake Wallet, Electrum

Some of these don't have first-party mobile or desktop clients, so here are some apps to use them with:

  • Posteo & Mailbox.org - Thunderbird (desktop, Android), FairEmail (Android), Evolution (Unix-like), Geary (Unix-like), Claws Mail (desktop), Fossify Calendar + DAVx^5^ (Android)
  • KeePass: KeePassXC (desktop), KeePassDX (Android), KeePassium (iOS)
[-] PirateFrog@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

One really nice advantage for Posteo is even if you stop paying, they'll never delete your account unless you specifically delete it yourself(preventing address recycling, unlike mailbox.org) and you can still access your account and recieve emails, you just can't send any until you pay again. They won't even delete it from inactivity.

That's a rather unique feature in the email world now.

[-] falsemirror@beehaw.org 9 points 3 days ago

I'll just add:

  • Proton drive => Seafile (selfhosted)
  • protonpass => bitwarden
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[-] eclipse@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

I wouldn't touch MEGA with a ten foot pole.

I'd also argue BitWarden shits on Keepass for UX.

[-] Swarfega@lemm.ee 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yes. I use KeePass every day but it's not similar to Bitwarden and Proton Pass which are very similar to each other.

I will ask, although this is a question for everyone I suppose. Why not use MEGA if your also using Cryptomator?

[-] biofaust@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

Seconding Tutanota. Started using it this week and it is so...simple! There are 2 apps on Android, but actually only the Tutamail one is needed.

I also use Nextcloud through a private cloud implementation, and it is not refined in the UI, but good enough.

[-] Imhotep@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

I agree with many recommendations

but as someone who has tried many VPN providers I can say Windscribe is really bad (for servers in the EU at least).
Slow, few servers, unreliable, and blocked on many websites

surprisingly I see it recommended all the time

[-] Kyle@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 hours ago

An assessment of windscribes European performance is helpful because I had no idea.

I'm in Canada (windscribe is Canadian), and find windscribe to be pretty good. So maybe it depends on location.

[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 32 points 4 days ago

He made one tweet

Then the company issues a statement

No more tweets or support

I mean, come on .. it's blown way out of water

[-] Thrickles@lemm.ee 45 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Everyone has a different level of tolerance. Personally, Andy can belch all the political crap he wants since Proton is a completely separate entity. But, when the official Proton account doubles-down on views I disagree with (which they've since deleted), that's what crossed my threshold. I've since moved to another service.

[-] cygnus@lemmy.ca 33 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

He made one tweet

A tweet and then several posts form the official Proton account. Furthermore his comments were so obviously badly informed both about the US government and the nature of his userbase that he clearly lacks the critical thinking to run the company.

Also because no one mentioned them yet, Filen is great as a Drive replacement, and unlike Proton they have a Linux app.

[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

If we did this when Google of Facebook started with shitty things now even the megacorp hellscape would be just that tiny bit better & even capital would have to work/give more for the people.

So when a Proton does a weird (which it def was, super weird, even in case of a Democrat win in USA the twaat would have been inappropriate since neither campaign ran on a pro privacy and free internet principles), this should be the reaction of its userbase.

It's exemplary is what it is, not overblown, it is how humans shape society, how they "vote" for direction and for the people.

[-] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

I was pretty unhappy with his leadership of Proton since its inception. Barely any work on basic features like email or calendar, constant need to rewrite the whole thing because they had some horrible backend architecture, then prioritizing crypto wallets nobody asked for and shoving more AI into places we don't care about.

I already canceled my paid plan and switched, and it honestly feels like a breath of fresh air. Things fucking work beautifully well compared to Proton's garbage UX.

[-] figjam@midwest.social 6 points 3 days ago

Maybe it is an overreaction. With copious alternatives and the footprint i had its relatively painless to move. I don't need to stay with a service that even slightly supports things that I don't agree with. Its my money, ill spend it how I like.

[-] inlandempire@jlai.lu 4 points 4 days ago

As I mentioned in the post, this is mostly out of curiosity

[-] LimpRimble@lemmy.ca 31 points 4 days ago

related to Proton’s recent political involvement

You should probably check the political leanings of the directors of each of the alternatives you are considering as well.

[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 21 points 4 days ago

Yeah, don't just drop whoever opens their mouth to speak..

[-] groet@infosec.pub 12 points 3 days ago

There is absolutely a point to shaming and boycotting everyone who acts negatively in public. Of course beeing a secret scumbag is also bad but it doesn't promote scumbaggery to other. A quiet ass does less damage than a loud one.

[-] Rogue@feddit.uk 15 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

The Proton CEO explicitly used Proton's official accounts and declared them as the company's official stance.

I don't mind people having political views I disagree with. The lines were crossed when his absurd personal views were published :

  • using company accounts
  • as official statements

edit: I was asked to provide sources so please find them here: https://feddit.uk/post/23386970/14888441

[-] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 days ago

May I trouble you to kindly provide sources for your statements? Your use of plurals indicates that there's more than one tweet, and I am fascinated to learn more.

[-] Rogue@feddit.uk 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

That's such a strange way to phrase it but I'm going to opt to believe you're human and asking in good faith.

This is what the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team stated in a response on r/ProtonMail:

Here is our official response, also available on the Mastodon post in the screenshot:

Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.

Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.

At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.

By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.

Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.

Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

Source: https://archive.ph/quYyb

To call out the import bits:

  1. He refers to it as the "official response"
  2. Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn't
  3. Rattles on about "corporate Dems" with incredible bias
  4. States "Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses" which is immediately refuted.

That was posted in ther/ProtonMail sub where the majority of the event took place: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/

However be aware that the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team kept editing his comments so I wouldn't trust the current state of it. Plus the proton team/subreddit mods deleted a ton of discussion they didn't like. Therefore this archive link captured the day after might show more but not all: https://web.archive.org/web/20250116060727/https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/

Some statements were made on Mastodon but these are subsequently deleted, but they're capture by an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503

I learned about it from an r/privacy thread but true to their reputation the mods there also went on a deletion spree and removed the entire post: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/

This archive link might show more but I've not checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115193443/https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/

There's also this lemmy discussion from the day after but by that point the Proton team had fully kicked in their censorship so I don't know how much people were aware of (apologies I don't know how to make a generic lemmy link) https://feddit.uk/post/22741653

[-] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago

I know its a strange way to phrase the request, but I wanted to make it explicit that it wasn't an attack but a good faith request, as you correctly and kindly assumed.

Online discourse is a minefield these days, it's nice when someone notices the effort you put in to not start a fight!

This is interesting stuff. When I get back to my computer I will do more research; I believe there are sites that show removed/revised reddit posts

[-] inlandempire@jlai.lu 9 points 3 days ago

I will, but that's not the most important point of this post

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[-] RandomPancake@lemmy.world 31 points 4 days ago

Tuta is an excellent alternative.

Fastmail is what I use for my day to day mail. If you're concerned about it being subject to Australian privacy laws, check out Startmail.

Mailbox.org is very good but some may find it overly complex.

[-] inlandempire@jlai.lu 5 points 3 days ago

I was already considering tuta as my "main" email for degoogling purposes, I'll consider their options for the paid plan, it looks like the strongest competitor to Proton

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[-] Sandbag@lemm.ee 9 points 3 days ago

Why does everyone just say use Mullvad now, I always got taught if they are advertising, you should not use them, has this stance changed?

[-] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago

How would a company (even a good one) let people know they exist without some sort of advertising?

Just start a company and sit there hoping people accidentally find you, then tell their friends?

Advertising has to happen on some level.

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[-] butter@midwest.social 6 points 3 days ago

Mullvad still advertises less than the others.

Nord has like the highest advertising budget I've ever seen.

And a lot of the major providers have been caught making fake recommendation websites.

[-] eclipse@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

Mullvad has amazing privacy credentials that are third party audited.

In terms of anonymity, you can literally send them cash via post to protect your identity.

I recommend them to everyone.

[-] kekmacska@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 days ago

they won't advertise much until you download theur browser. that's intrusive af

[-] kekmacska@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 days ago

Tutanota, infomaniak, onion mail, forward email, i2p mail

set up your own hosting solution. it is not hard, i did it too. if you need a preset one, nextcloud, filen, cryptpad, cozy, puter, internxt, cloudreve, denet

not really, Bitwarden and KeepassXC are the most established ones. for the best security and privacy, i recommend (selhosted) Bitwarden, since if your computer with KeepassXC, or even just the drive you installed it on stops working, you lose all your passwords, which really sucks. This is not an issue with Bitwarden, the passwords are stored with zero knowledge encryption, you will have all your passwords until you know the master password, and can log into the same vault from almost any device (windows, mac, linux, android, ios, bsd)

Mullvad, yes. But there are some others like Riseup, Calyx, nym vpn

For calendars, there are a shit ton of them: My favorite is Foossify Calendar, but there are some others like: Tuta calendar, etar, kalendar, calindori

[-] something_random_tho@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago

Mullvad is great. Also for drive, if you just need e2ee photo storage, check out ente.

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[-] Apathy@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

Mullvad VPN

[-] CMDR_Horn@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago

VPS with nextcloud et al

[-] yuki@programming.dev 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Mail and calendar: i think mailbox and posteo should work well, they both support IMAP for mail and CalDAV for calendar, just get a nice client(surprisingly not many for calendar standard protocol. thunderbird on desktop and etar/fossify calendar on android. stock one on ios)

VPN: MullVAD is the best

Drive: Check filen, it's cheaper and better, and has powerful CLI tools

Pass: Maybe unofficial self hosted version of bitwarden. It's called vaultwarden, and don't be afraid of selfhost, basically all you need to do is docker compose.

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 6 points 4 days ago
  • Mail and calendar: Tuta seems the only alternative for mail and calendar if you want custom domain support and encryption by default that Tuta (probably) can't access even if legally compelled to. Doesn't have a desktop bridge like Proton does, rather it has a full Linux app for both email and calendar. Which will be a pro for some people and a con for others. And I'm struggling to run it on my nixOS system, for the three people on earth that would matter for.
  • Drive: I have a Synology NAS which handles this need very well for me, especially with my own managed wireguard VPN for access away from home
  • Pass: Bitwarden
  • VPN: Mullvad
[-] ColdWater@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 days ago

Lucky me I didn't use any of their services, good luck to you for finding alternatives tho

[-] FundMECFSResearch 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I’m probably gonna get yelled at for this, but for my use case it works, since I’m not actually trying to hide from the law, just avoiding being tracked by marketing companies… Icloud+ offers encrypted cloud storage, a proxy IP relay, and more importantly an email service that gives you unlimited aliases.

[-] cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago

Lots of Mullvan ppl in here, I thought Private Internet Access was supposed to be the king? What happened?

I don't use any VPN, FWIW.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.zip 5 points 4 days ago

There was a recent post on !privacy@lemmy.dbzer0.com

[-] ctag@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 3 days ago

Fastmail.com has been great here.

[-] codexarcanum@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I just moved to Proton before this while debacle and it definitely put me properly back on edge about who to trust in tech!

I'll probably stick with their email and calendar for now. (Though I'm curious what hosted calendars might be out there I could use alternatives for arranging events with friends.)

I had started on Keepass before, briefly tried Proton Pass, and now have completed moving to Keepass. I keep my database in my syncthing folder and have it on all my devices. With browser plug-ins and the KeepassDX app on Android, the experience is basically identical, except entirely private and self-hosted. A win all around, I'm real happy with this.

For VPN I'm using surfshark right now and haven't had any real issues. Not sure what the prevailing sentiment about them is though. I do sometimes find their endpoints blocked by various sites (catbox.moe is oddly very picky about this).

For drive, I'll probably end up getting a seedbox and a lot more hardrives in the near future anyway, so that'll be a problem/solution for me then.

[-] DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 days ago

Generally, I'd recommend having different services for everything anyway just for situations like this where if one's bad, you don't have to change everything else. Pick what services you really need the premium for and find free tiers that match your needs on others. For VPN, I still use PIA since their reputation is still holding up. I know you said you don't want to hear it but Bitwarden for password manager and for the rare time I need cloud storage, I use Mega since they offer 20GB on their free tier. Oh, and Disroot for email bit that doesn’t have everything you're looking for so I can't recommend it even if it's been great for my use case.

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this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2025
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