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Is she repentant or proud. If the former that's definitely worth some respect. If the latter, well at least it's honesty.
- Having a moment to finally read the article. Seems she's repentant. So that's definitely some respect.
Either way she's got more backbone than most GOP fucks.
Definitely. It's still good to see and acknowledge on the rare occasion it happens. To help remind ourselves that no matter how divided we seem. No matter the atrocities they enable/justify because of propaganda. If you break the propaganda they'd be likely allies. It puts things back in perspective.
I am a massive critic of 12-step programs, but she credits it for getting her out of the MAGA cult and admitting that what she did was wrong, so they do have some value.
Yep, ultimately nothing. No intervention, no program regardless of number of steps. Will help anyone not open to or seeking change. The mandatory way they can be applied sometimes definitely reeks a bit of grifting. But they can work for the right person when you find them. That's a big but for sure though.
I like big buts.............sorry...
Repentant. In the interview, she said that at some point people on Twitter opened her eyes and she realized that she was in a cult. She thinks she belongs in jail.
Maybe its the level of stubborn shithead that I'm used to dealing with, but its hard for me to comprehend someone capable of the self reflection she shows falling for Trumpian bullshit in the first place.
Anyone can be ushered into a cult if their channels of information are limited, especially in this increasingly isolated world. Something related I'd estimate is true of most people, regardless of affiliation, is that they can be viciously loyal to communities they strongly identify with.
When chances arise that they might be receptive to it, the right person/people can reach out to misled folks like her. Condescending or patronizing them will just push them away. Should be obvious no one is going to listen to people they perceive as not recognizing their dignity as a human being.
Probably the only ones among that crowd that are truly impossible to reach would be the subset that are as narcissistic as Trump himself and see themselves in him-- the ones who do fully get what Trump is doing, and like it. Many of them are likely in hate groups or working in positions of authority because they want to power trip over others. The rest are just ordinary people who were brought up in a way that made an opening for them to be duped.
I know, it's honestly kind of terrifying
Prison*
Jail is where you go before you're convicted
Thanks for the correction. I shouldn't use those terms interchangeably.
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This is what a real American looks like. Someone who can admit when they're wrong, learn, and do the right thing.
I think you mean 'grownup' this is what adults are SUPPOSED to do, but it's still profound to see in action. Good on her I say.
I think you either put teenagers down or give these people too much credit. Even non-grownups do this.
You are insinuating three different things in two sentences.
ironically as the only person who seems to take responsibility and show regret, she's the one most deserving of a pardon. but hey the American justice system has never been about rehabilitation; only about which team you're on.
The world is getting weirder by the minute. Convicts rejecting a presidential pardon on moral grounds? And people who participated in an attempted coup to boot? That's unheard of!
If something this weird doesn't tell you the republic is on the verge of complete and irreversible dysfunction, I don't know what does.
That woman restores a bit of faith in humanity in me though.
on the verge
How bad is the media over there? The republic has been circling the drain for at least 40 years and is no longer capable of self correcting, if it ever really was.
How bad is the media over there?
Worse even than you think it is.
Giant ovaries on this woman
It appears common sense succeeded and Pam should receive a full pardon in Jan 2029.
12 steppers really do have a religious response to things. I guess that's one of the few ways to fundamentally change your outlook on the world. Be nice if it wasn't an actual religious program though. And that was the key for both that rejected the pardons: they were 12 steppers.
Unfortunately, it was formed from a prayer group, and as much as some of my fellow atheists have told me that you can be an atheist and a 12-stepper (and maybe they can deal with the cognitive dissonance), there is just no legitimately non-religious interpretation of step 11. The whole "anything can be your higher power" concept I've been told by those atheists simply cannot conform to step 11:
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
You substitute "God" with pretty much anything non-deistic and that sentence simply does not rationally work.
I've always suspected that the biggest reason 12-step programs like AA do work for some people is that it's a form of group therapy.
If you want to detach step 11 from it's Christian roots, you cannot just substitute "God" in its wording. That yields nonsense, as you are stating correctly.
The aim of Step 11 is "knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." In non–religious terms I would call this aim "committment".
The means of Step 11 to achieve commitment is spirituality, spirituality being a set of basic convictions that provides meaning, purpose and a sense of belonging.
A "neutral" Meta—Step 11 might be worded something like:
"We consciously develop a healthy spiritual basis for our live, gaining motivation and comittment through it."
As any religion, philosophy, ideology or other system of basic convictions can provide this spiritual basis for an individual, the formulation of a more concrete and helpful Step 11 will differ between e.g. communists, buddhists, naturists and epicureans.
You're basically saying the 12 steps only work for atheists if they aren't the actual 12 steps. You do realize that, right?
Depends on your definition of "actual".
I totally agree that the original 12 steps cannot work for anyone not believing in an Abrahamitic god.
I'd say that you need the actual steps for other people, i.e. the steps the AA are really taking, not the steps they claim to take.
You can substitute for the universe, the program and people in it, or nature and I'd say it still works. Just how you frame prayer or meditation. One of the definitions of prayer is a solemn request. The purpose of having "God" in the 12 steps is to have a belief in something "greater" than yourself. To me the group of alcoholics who got me sober is something "greater" than myself because I truly couldn't do it alone. The prayer and meditation can just be used almost as a manifesting of intention. If I pray that I be more tolerant patient and kind to those around me, than that's more likely to be on my mind whether I'm intentionally sending that prayer to a deity, the universe, nature, or the idea of the group as a whole. I say this as a 12 stepper myself that is non religious. That being said a lot of people use God or a deity as a higher power, but just saying it's certainly not a requirement.
No. You can't. Because those make no sense when you rewrite it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the universe as we understood it, praying only for knowledge of its will for us and the power to carry that out.
The universe only has a will if you're not an atheist.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with the program and people in it as we understood them, praying only for knowledge of their will for us and the power to carry that out.
This only makes sense if you think praying to a group will make them force you to do something. Which is nonsense.
¯_(ツ)_/¯ Hey, I guess I'm wrong, but it's been working for me when nothing else has.
If it works for you, great. As I said a while ago.
It's simpler than all that. Satanists would say God is just You, or some version of yourself that is all the things you wish you could be. The fact that you are there praying means you have a good idea of what needs to change, and are searching for the strength within yourself.
As I said, that makes it irrational. People like you say that, but when it actually comes to rewriting it, it makes no sense at all:
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve my conscious contact with me as I understand myself, praying only for knowledge of my will for me and the power to carry that out.
Dunno what you're on about, makes complete sense to me. Just requires some mental flexibility.
Really? You pray to yourself? You don't have conscious contact with yourself?
It takes conscious effort to be in touch with your deeper thoughts and emotions, so in a sense yes. Not everything that is known to the self is known to the conscious mind. Didn't think that would be controversial.
"In a sense." i.e. you have to make some really convoluted interpretations to make it work.
It's fine that you don't understand. I know plenty of non-religious people who were able to find their own meaning in those words
Yes, I realize non-religious people can accept things that aren't rational.
I think the key here, and I'm speaking from the POV of a 12-stepper, is the idea of introspection.
Literally, all I learned from 12 step was to look at myself deeply, intensely, and with honesty; learn to forgive myself for the shitty things I've done; learn to forgive others for the shitty things they've done to me, while taking responsibility for my part in whatever that may have been; and to get into the habit of practicing those things daily.
The part I think you're missing with the quote above that you seem to be taking it literally, when in the quote itself implies that it and the idea of God in general, is to be interpreted by the reader however they see fit.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
I also think that the "sought through prayer and meditation" does not necessarily imply that one must do both, as it is speaking in the first person plural. Meaning, some people may pray without "meditating", while others like myself may choose to meditate without "praying" and you can still say of the group "We prayed and meditated" without contradicting oneself. An "and/or" probably would've worked best there, but whatever.
Now, as to whether I think AA and NA are culty? Absolutely, and it's a big reason why I stopped attending.
"And" doesn't just imply both, that's exactly what "and" means. It doesn't mean either/or, it means both. I have no idea why you're suggesting otherwise.
A ham and cheese sandwich isn't ham or cheese, it's both.
A husband and wife is always two people.
A horse and rider is not either a horse or a person riding a horse.
You must know this.
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From a quick ddg -
AA Version: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Practical Version: We started meditating.
Throughout this process, you’ll discover – if you haven’t already – that none of these steps exists in a vacuum. They all impact each other and are impacted by the others. This is particularly true for step eleven. The ultimate goal of this step is to engage regularly in the practice of mindfulness, which has been demonstrated time and again to benefit multiple areas of one’s mental health. Being mindful means being consciously aware of something (usually breath, bodily sensations, or thoughts) without judgment or resistance. The best way to practice this is through meditation, but it can be practiced throughout the day as well. I recommend utilizing both for optimal results.
Source: https://aaagnostica.org/2020/03/29/staying-sober-without-god-practical-step-eleven/
You don't have to substitute "God" directly in the steps to make them work for you. There are plenty of ways to use the ideas of the program without being limited by its theistic roots.
Of course AA works because it serves as group therapy. That should be fairly obvious to anyone who's ever heard of the concept. But the most important step in any therapeutic approach is acknowledging hard truths. That is the most important part of AA, as well.
Half the steps are devoted to honestly acknowledging our flaws and mistakes, owning them, addressing them, and making amends wherever possible. That is what these pardon refusers did here, and the world would be a better place if more people had their courage.
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It isn't by necessity a religious program, though I freely acknowledge its theistic roots, and the fact that many are religious and do rely on deity as higher power.
But the reason these people were capable of this bravery is stated in the article and is specifically not their piety - it's their honesty.
"Step 4: Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves"
"Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it."
The most important lesson to be learned in AA has nothing to do with God and everything to do with addressing falsehoods - the lies people tell themselves and others to justify their behavior and to excuse their actions.
Through time, habit, and conscious effort and will, these people have primed their minds to be willing to accept a fundamentally difficult truth - that what we think and what we feel can be false. That the things we tell ourselves, the things we tell others, and the things we do can all be wrong.
We all have a responsibility to face those truths with courage and transparency. We have a responsibility to own our flaws and mistakes and make amends where possible. That is the guiding truth of AA. It all started with God, but it ends with the individual, and how they face those truths.
I guess I can't separate it from a religious program because fundamentally the ethics of it are theistic and not humanistic. They're handed down morals that come from a higher moral power. When you get into esoteric ethical debates with Christian apologists, and they describe atheists as being incapable of being moral, that's what they mean. They believe morals must come from something greater than ourselves and cannot come from a human source.
To put it another way, AA is remarkably similar to Aristotle's virtue ethics which was used by Aquinas to describe the origins of morality. Similar to AA's higher power, Aristotle derived the moral authority for virtue ethics from the "prime mover." Same concept, in essence.
As much as theists would claim that their morals were handed down from divinity, ultimately an athiest would understand those morals to be originally handed down from humans, and therefore humanistic.
Doesn't mean they're good morals of course, especially when corrupted by motives of power, but bad morals can be handed down by secular sources as well. The point being that theistic origins do not necessarily mean the morals themselves are flawed.
In any case, fundamentally the ethics of AA's 12 steps are technically theistic in origin and nomenclature but humanistic in nature, in that they appear to really dig down into the psychology of humans in a way that deviates significantly from their christian roots.
According to Mercadante, however, the AA concept of powerlessness over alcohol departs significantly from Oxford Group belief. In AA, the bondage of an addictive disease cannot be cured, and the Oxford Group stressed the possibility of complete victory over sin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous
The original christian prayer group believed that through God, addiction could be cured. AA has maintained from the beginning that addiction cannot be cured - a recovering alcoholic is and always will be a recovering alcoholic. Faith in God alone will not deliver salvation because addiction is not sin, it is illness, and should be treated by more than just prayer.
Honestly out of all 12 steps it's the first step that actually hits the hardest.
"We admitted we were powerless over alchohol (although you could substitute alcohol for anything really)—that our lives had become unmanageable."
As my shrink used to say "the hardest part of overcoming a problem or mistake is admitting you have a problem/made a mistake."
This article is too short. Give this woman a bigger platform.
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this post was submitted on 25 Jan 2025
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