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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by hangman@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.

Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/

Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"

I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/

Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”

Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?

This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available

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[-] Kit 201 points 1 month ago

I think far more people are exposed to lead in water than from guns. Even gun-owning Americans don't go to the range that often.

[-] hangman@lemm.ee 42 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That’s a good point, especially the fact the most people who own guns don’t shoot them that often, but re: lead in the water, hasn’t the issue of lead in water become less significant over time?

This post by New York City government states that actually construction work is the most common source of lead exposure for people in the city, followed by sketchy consumer products. https://a816-dohbesp.nyc.gov/IndicatorPublic/data-stories/adult-lead/#%3A%7E%3Atext=This+continued+drop+in+blood%2Cair%2C+paint+and+consumer+products.

Maybe just generally we’re not taking the adverse cognitive effects of lead exposure, whatever the source, seriously enough?

Edit: someone else in the comments made the connection between the high numbers of lead water pipes in Florida and the “Florida man” phenomenon. Maybe lead in the water is still way more significant of an issue than I thought

[-] Kit 51 points 1 month ago

Also bear in mind that leaded gas was the norm til the mid 90s, so a lot of boomers and Gen X were exposed

[-] Reyali@lemm.ee 22 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

was the norm

In the US, it was only banned from being sold in 1996, but it wasn’t the norm for long before that. The last model year that leaded gas was allowed for cars was 1974. Yes, all Boomers and most of Gen X would have had high exposure, but it would have been fading out by the time younger Gen Xers were born.

And yes there are some non-car applications of it that are still legal to this day, but the overall frequency of it would have dropped a ton well before the mid-90s. (Source, and actual graphs of the decline over time)

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[-] Zak@lemmy.world 182 points 1 month ago

My aunt spent a long time working in education in the USA, much of it in leadership roles. When she incorporated lessons on critical thinking into the curriculum, it resulted in a lot of pushback from parents who did not appreciate their kids applying the lessons at home.

People who actively resist the use of critical thinking will seem cognitively impaired because they are, in fact intentionally impairing their cognition. My intuition here is to blame religious fundamentalism, but that's not a well-researched position.

[-] PillBugTheGreat@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago

Yeah man. When that kid starts asking questions and challenging the family norms, that's the teacher's fault for making their life harder. It isn't a sign that the parent needs to adapt.

Adapting IS a pain in the ass. Some parents don't have the faculties to do it. Some do, but don't after getting done with work. It is truely a generational trauma that the parent has to head off in themselves for it to carry to early aged kids.

[-] Curious_Canid@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 month ago

Fundamentalism is certainly a contributing factor, but there are others. Conservatives have been working to cut back on education since the early 80's. Removing critical thinking training was one of the objectives.. Conservative policies are unpopular and are often supported with misrepresentations and outright lies. To succeed, they need a public without the knowledge or skills to realize their arguments are invalid. Unfortunately, they have gone a long way toward accomplishing that.

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This is from the Texas GOP 2012 education platform.

"We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

They backtracked on critical thinking after the outrage it caused with this

  • Munisteri told KVUE, "The platform plank is against a specific type of teaching called 'outcome-based education.'

"The reason why critical thinking is mentioned is some places try to disguise the program of outcome-based education and just re-label it as 'critical thinking.' "

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[-] roofuskit@lemmy.world 89 points 1 month ago

Most Americans don't even own guns. A minority of Americans own lots of guns.

[-] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 47 points 1 month ago

And like 9 out of 10 people who own guns go to the range less than a few times a year.

More than half of gun owners have never gone to a range beyond what might have been part of a state's pistol permitting process.

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[-] ExcursionInversion@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah, but I read something on reddit that says Americans all have guns and love shooting them. So they must all have brain damage

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[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 64 points 1 month ago

Was the majority of the German voting public lead-poisoned in the 30s? I don't think lead was even put in gas then. Those Germans almost certainly were not lead poisoned, and they put a monster into power.

I get wanting a good explanation, but in reality, it's a simple but unsatisfying explanation. It applies to every country and every population in every era. People are fuckin' stupid. Carlin said it best:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

The German population went through serious economic troubles. Wheelbarrows of cash to buy stuff. Economically troubled people get angry and revolt, and in democratic systems that means firstly voting for the extreme candidates, the ones with a good story. Anger shuts down critical thinking and they don't think about other consequences of their vote.

That's how many elections went in a lot of counties in the last few years too.

[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Yeah, I get that saying people are fuckin stupid is dismissive and over simplified in a lot of cases... But it's also still true and a factor, which adds to all the other factors you're talking about. Ultimately I think if people were more educated and intelligent, they could overcome a lot of irrationality.

[-] subignition@fedia.io 15 points 1 month ago

It's deliberate. The right wing has been gradually whittling down the quality of our education system for more than a generation.

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[-] zqps@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 month ago

I dislike this saying because it's always been assumed, never proven, that intelligence follows a normal distribution. That is if it can even be mapped to a single, consistent, comparable number.

But your point is valid. Though I'd add that it's not universally true. Fascists thrive on fear and ignorance. Give people access to a good education, which includes political education, and they are far more resilient to these tactics.

Which is why it's especially nefarious that conservatives love to undermine, vilify, and defund education.

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[-] qantravon@lemmy.world 63 points 1 month ago

Or, you know, the lead that we put into the air for decades burning leaded gasoline...

Even though we've (mostly) stopped doing that, the effects are cumulative, and there are still plenty of people alive who were around when that was still a thing.

[-] hangman@lemm.ee 15 points 1 month ago

Somebody else in the comments said something very similar, I’lll paraphrase what I responded which is that I hadn’t really thought of that, and I’m starting now to come around to the notion that maybe even if there is some percentage of the population suffering the cognitive impairments associated with the adverse effects of lead, it’s probably more likely that they were exposed many years or decades ago vs recently

[-] Cris_Color@lemmy.world 60 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This seems like reaching for the most esoteric and niche explanation to a fairly simple phenomenon.

America's school system sucks, and the anti-authoritarian nature of a culture formed by rejecting monarchy has been coopted to convince people that science and reason are authority figures you ought to fight back against.

The vast majority of Americans aren't gun owners, and the vast majority of gun owners don't shoot very often. You haven't provided evidence for Americans being incapable of critical thinking, but you want evidence for why guns aren't the source of american stupidity.

This is a very silly post. 😅

[-] hangman@lemm.ee 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I’m not sure why you think it’s esoteric or niche, there are something like 400 million guns in the US, with 1/3 of Americans directly owning at least one gun and 44% of us households having a gun owner. I think that’s pretty far from “the vast majority” not being gun owners https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

Moreover, lead exposure is known to cause cognitive impairments. I do agree however that most gun owners don’t shoot very often.

But if you need me to cite evidence that millions of Americans seem incapable of critical thinking you are either trolling or just not paying attention.

Here’s an entire book on the subject in case that helps https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Critical-Thinking-Crisis-Education/dp/1735942200

Finally, I’m not sure how you could construe my question as wanting evidence that it isn’t guns causing the problem, I pretty clearly asked a question, provided some links to explain what I had read that led me to that question, and then welcomed contrary evidence, of which you cited none by the way.

[-] Cris_Color@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

A sample size of 1000 people isnt exactly huge to be fair.

I'd like to clarify- I wasn't intending to be hostile, though I can see how it came across that way, and I apologize, I did a kind of shitty job of conveying my idea in a way that would connect with you. I think in online spaces it can be really hard to break the habit of making your point in a way that will register with bystanders rather than the person you're ostensibly actually talking to. I did a great job at expressing my perspective in a way that would validate the confusion I think amercians are likely to experience reading this post (as reflected by the votes), but I did a kinda crap job of actually addressing you, sorry about that. I'll do my best to be a little effective in communicating what I meant and why I felt that way.

As an American, this feels like a cartoonishly out of touch representation of the issues my country faces (which to be fair, would be entirely understandable if you don't live here and don't have any first-hand experience with the US). We have plenty of them (issues, that is), and there's lots of discussion to be had on the impact of guns on society, and also from where I'm standing it seems like are far more probable explanations for people lacking critical thinking skills than that we all just shoot our rootin' tootin' guns all the time over here in yeehaw land, and so we all have lead poisoning from all the bullets we're shooting'. (Not trying to build a straw man of things you didn't say, my point is that it feels like an caricature, and not one that aligns with the experience I have actually living here)

To reach past "crappy educational system", "weaponized anti-authoritarianism and individualism", and even "lead from drinking water or gasoline", or any number of other likely causes, to instead land on a caricature of American life feels a bit silly to me. Thats an acute risk associated with an activity most people don't participate in, and that even the people who do participate in, don't very often.

The book you linked appears to be about how the American educational system is conceptually flawed and approaches education in a way unlikely to yield meaningful critical thinking skills- a point I think I'd likely agree with it on. But to be fair, a book also isn't actually a quantitative reflection of poor critical thinking skills. It wouldn't totally suprise me if America did struggle with critical thinking, there are lots of possible reasons we might- and at the same time, it's a little frustrating for someone foreign to my country to look from the outside and say "man, I wonder if they're all dumb cause they have lead poisoning from shooting guns all the time" while providing evidence for the link between shooting and lead exposure (makes complete sense) but no evidence for the premise that we're dumb; that part is just taken for granted.

It kinda feels like you're asking if the caricature of us all shooting guns all the time is the reason for the caricaturization of us all being dumb. And in doing so, overlook much more systemic far-reaching explanations for how a nation might end up in a state where critical thinking skills are lacking.

I'm not wading into looking for evidence because the nature of these things is that it takes a looooot of evidence to dispute an idea that can be thrown out with only a little. My mental health is horrible and I don't really have the energy for that at present 😅 I think lots of other folks have made valuable contributions to the discussion, but I didn't see anyone speaking to the fact that this feels like it's borne out of an outsiders perspective based mostly on an imaginary idea of what it's like to live here.

I don't expect my expressing that idea to change your mind, but I still think it has value for providing perspective and context to the things you're considering. If you don't actually know much about the US first-hand, it might not be apparent that folks in the US are unlikely to see that a realistic source of the problem you're describing given the actual experience of living here.

All I really hope to add to the conversation is that perspective. Its fine if you don't see it the same way that I do, to be totally honest sometimes there are instances where being immersed in or "too close" to something impairs your ability to see it clearly. Though I don't think this is one of those times.

Sorry this is all over the place, I'm pretty spent and didn't have it in me to edit further for clarity (or try to be succinct, as you can probably tell by the like 30 paragraphs where a couple of more carefully thought out ones might have sufficed.)

[-] f314@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Well, I’m sure the exposure from going to the shooting range is a lot smaller than this, but lead poisoning from leaded gasoline apparently had a measurable impact on IQ levels.

I 100 percent agree that the big problem of the educational system, though! It is also interesting how self-fulfilling the adversity to government has been: it has made it so easy for men with bad intentions to tear down an at least functional democracy by promising to “fix” it.

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[-] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 55 points 1 month ago

I doubt that there are enough people shooting enough guns often enough for it to be more than just trace exposures, it likely must be something else.

[-] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 44 points 1 month ago

It's regular old religion, shit culture, and propaganda just like it always is.

[-] Wiz@midwest.social 12 points 1 month ago

Plus, Gen-X and Boomers were exposed to a lot of lead.

Gasoline types used to be "Regular or Unleaded" and Regular, I think, and required a"special" engine.

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[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 46 points 1 month ago

The vast majority of Americans don’t own/shoot guns. There’s 300 million guns because some people own multiple.

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

Also, the British literally voted to have a worse economy. We don’t have a monopoly on headassery.

[-] PolyLlamaRous@lemmy.world 36 points 1 month ago

I see where you are going, but you probably should focus less on the guns. Most Americans don't regularly shoot guns, even those that have them. A whole lot also don't own any. But lead is all over in shit like water pipes. Other heavy metals and chemicals are present in higher levels than allowed elsewhere. Also full metal jacket is much more common than it used to be which reduces the lead particles when shooting.

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[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 35 points 1 month ago

It's a known risk, and there are guidelines to lessen or prevent lead exposure at the range, but I'd wager most shooters aren't aware.

For example:

Use jacketed or lead free bullets and primers.

Wash your face, arms and hands after using the range.

Change your clothes and shoes after using the range.

Wash your range clothes separately from your families.

Do not eat, drink, or smoke on the range.

Take the same precautions after cleaning your guns.

That being said, the folks at largest risk for this kind of exposure would be those who fire guns the most often, so that population would be the canary in the coal mine so to speak.

https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-police-officers-practice-at-ranges

"How often do police officers practice at ranges?

Most departments require re-qualification training once a year.

My department required shooting three times a year, once with our sidearm, once with our 12 gauge shotguns, and once with our AR 15 carbines.

As for my self, I go to the range 8 to 10 times a year. I am usually accompanied by 5 or 6 of my fellow officers. We are not for the fun, we are training by using the state required shooting plans and we add a little extra to it.

Most officers I know only go to range when required for re-qualification. Not because they don’t want to, shooting off a couple hundreds rounds is an expensive proposition."

Yeah... Might be a reason cops seem dumber than average, and they don't hire the brightest to begin with.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

[-] hangman@lemm.ee 16 points 1 month ago

Thanks for being the first person in this thread to actually post some useful tips to get the lead out, so to speak.

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[-] uriel238 25 points 1 month ago

Some of us were around when leaded gasoline was the norm, and every municipality had a crime rate drop that corellates to their unleaded gas mandate.

Then there's lead in candy which was a problem until the FDA shut that down.

There still is lead in fuel, and so kids who play in urban playgrounds are supposed to wash their hands before eating anything.

So if our people have detectable elevated lead levels (it has a plenty-long bio half life), I'd question automotive exhaust and industry before worrying about guns at the range. Unless someone is squeezing off a hundred rounds a day.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 21 points 1 month ago

Most Americans don't shoot very often, even if they own a bunch of guns.

Part of it is that ammo is just expensive. A trip to the range can burn hundreds of dollars in ammo in just a few minutes.

[-] PonyOfWar@pawb.social 21 points 1 month ago

I've been thinking long covid might also be a factor for it getting worse over the last few years.

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[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 1 month ago

iirc most spectacular form of neurotoxic damage really only shows years later if lead exposure happened during childhood which also means that little effect will be seen immediately after cleaning up lead but will show up 20 years later or so. that's still leaded gasoline and maybe paint and water pipes to some degree

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[-] Nomad@infosec.pub 18 points 1 month ago

The brain follows the same patterns as muscles: use it or lose it. The general population in America is very much not educated at all. So their brains lose the ability to think rapidly.

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[-] Libb@jlai.lu 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

As an outsider (most people in my country don't shoot guns for fun, but we still have our fair share of morons) I think not educating oneself/not being educated may be a more important cause.

My personal opinion is that it's more related to the way people spend (waste) their time. All of us, I mean. The way we (do not) educate ourselves, the way we do (not) value intelligence and knowledge.

  • How many people shoot guns? vs How many don't ever read a book (a difficult one, I mean, say one essay a year)? or How many students reach university level without having read a single book? FFS, if that doesn't ring an alarm bell...
  • How many people are (not) being taught how to have heated but articulated discussions, in the literal sense of debating against someone, having a dispute with someone, while still being able to not want to kill one another?
  • How many people are willing to be told (and willing to admit that) they were wrong... when they were?

That lack of education and an overall cheerful ignorance of all facts that dare not fit their viewpoint, no matter which one it is, seems to me a much more likely cause to explain why more and more people around the world (not just Americans) 'seem cognitively impaired'. And that's because, well, they are. Sadly.

We don't value knowledge anymore, we value money and success. Once again, suffice to ask people: how many essays did you read in the last 12 months? Or to look at kids, how many of them want to be, say, a doctor, a scientist of some sort or, even funnier, a writer? And how many want to become 'an influencer' on YT (or TikTok, or whatever) or to become some star singer or sport star?

Kids have not suddenly become allergic to smartness. They're only the mirror of what our real values as a society are (not the ones we pretend to have). Which are not being smart, not even talented as a matter of fact. They are: easy money and success.

imho, this is the main cause of dumbification going on everywhere. Obviously, I may be wrong and maybe I should stop eating lead bars as a snack?

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[-] Zier@fedia.io 16 points 1 month ago

Religion is the cause. You are not allowed to think outside the cult. There are a lot of idiot Americans who don't own guns or are exposed to them, so the lead theory is not valid in that sense.

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

At first glance I thought this post was a bit facetious, but after thinking about it and reviewing some research around people manufacturing the bullets and how it affects them and understanding that detonating them in confined spaces probably is just as if not more problematic. And if you have a job that requires you to do it often, say a cop, does that create even more of an effect? Lead exposure causes a loss of impulse control as well as intelligence effects. Could that be one reason why cops are so much more violent than the average person? I'd love to see a study on lead content of blood in cops, especially ones who murder people they capture, but unfortunately, the NRA is probably too powerful to allow that to happen. And conservatives hate masks, so I doubt it would be easy to convince cops to wear them while practicing.

[-] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

I think there's a much higher chance of slow-poisoning with heavy metals and other chemicals by food then shooting guns. Food quality standards in the US are poor. As well as nutrition wise. Malnutrition has a big effect on people their brain. The brain needs loads of stuff to function properly, not just corn syrup and fats. And with the poor US food safety regulations and poor tap water there's more poison then nutricions coming into your body.

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[-] MissJinx@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

It's really the idiocracy theory. Dumb people have more and more kids while smart people tend to have 0 to 2 kids. It's exponetially growing the amount of dumb people. Besides some people that had potential dumbed themselfs down by joining organized religion. very sad

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this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2024
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