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There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Yeah and any woman who doesn't cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that's the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there's no alternatives to that for women either. It's not like a man can't just be themselves and content with that.
The fuck are you talking about? A woman can go be career driven or whatever. What else is there for a man?
Being literally whatever the hell they want. The world is not black and white.
Society does not permit this and you're being intellectually dishonest in suggesting otherwise.
My next door neighbor is a stay at home dad what are you on about?
And how long is that going to go on before his wife divorces him out of resentment?
Well, they've been together for at least 24 years so idk?
Also living the dream
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There are, like, literally billions of men who don't fit this archetype you're describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That's why it's actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they're shamed as losers if their work doesn't pay. Women don't stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren't white. What are YOU smoking?
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I'd point out that's a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn't change diapers or won't clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you're talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives' incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
Yeah see, women have gained gender roles that aren't the traditional, but the traditional homemaker is still an option. A woman can say "I want to be an insufferable boss bitch" OR she can say "I want to be a homemaker and let a man pay my way my entire life." Men do not get that kind of option; a man doesn't get to say "You know what I'm just gonna find a wife who will pay all my bills for me." That shit doesn't work. Your neighbor or whatever who's a stay at home dad? I guarantee that's not how he made his case on a first date because there wouldn't have been a second one. I've seen women go on Tinder under a man's account and try dating as a man, it's an eye opening experience for a lot of them. Make up a profile that says that. "I want to be a stay at home dad and have my wife be the sole breadwinner" and see if you get ANY attention. I guarantee you won't.
then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition,
I would agree with you here. Measuring a man's success as his ability to get and keep a woman is kinda worthless. A man can do everything right and still get left because she's bored or thinks "an accountant is good but maybe I can find a lawyer." Women love divorce, after the wedding ceremony it's probably their favorite thing about marriage. Comparing the divorce rates of gay men, heterosexual couples and lesbians, gay men get divorced the least and lesbians get divorced the most. You seem to be pushing a hypothesis that divorces are caused by men behaving badly to their spouse, but if that were the case you'd think that gay men would abuse each other the most and lesbians the least, when the opposite seems to be true.
BUT HERE'S THE THING. The traditional gender role of a man is to be a breadwinner and provider--for himself at least--if not a wife and nuclear family, right? That's the traditional man's role. Work and earn a living for yourself and your dependents. The traditional male gender role includes bachelorhood be it temporary or permanent.
To step outside of that role pretty much means you're not going to pay your own way, in which case where is food and rent going to come from?
Government welfare? In third world failed states like the USA this is unlikely and getting less likely each administration.
Living with his parents? Grown men who are still dependent on their parents are always the butt of a joke. "Parent's basement" is synonymous with "pathetic loser" and you'll see people call men who are dependent on their parents pathetic to his face even when they've come to him for help with something because he's probably handy with electronics.
A breadwinning wife? Reversal of traditional roles, she brings home the bacon he cooks and cleans? Well to do this, he has to attract and keep a woman. By fucking definition. If he doesn't, this strategy has failed. BY FUCKING DEFINITION.
Breadwinning husband? Straight men are locked out of this one.
Homelessness. Need I say more?
Prison. Also, need I say more?
Can you think of anything else for a man to do? No. It's go to work and support himself.
Now that we're in the workplace, you'll find men are being pushed in a more masculine direction, not less. Women enter the workforce almost entirely in safe, indoor, climate controlled jobs. Women are rare to find in infrastructure, mining and logging, construction, transportation, so on and so forth. Men do the dirty and dangerous jobs and increasingly that's all that's offered to them.
What choice of gender role is there for a man? In the 1950's you had husbands and wives. That's it. The man went to work and brought home the money, the woman stayed in the home and did housework and cared for children. In the late 20th century feminism happened and you get the Liberated Modern Woman(tm). Women suddenly had choices. Men saw no such change. There is no such thing as the Liberated Modern Man(tm). I'm probably the first person in history to have typed the phrase.
Lol ok
I would have been that statistic too before I transitioned and found gender roles are fucking dumb
Gender roles are pretty dumb even for people happy living in their birth-assigned gender. But I guess you see it twice as bad^2^,cause you've experienced them from both sides now. Fixing yourself doesn't fix the world, I guess.
I'd be interested to see what the rates of suicidal ideation are compared between men who do and don't conform to traditional gender roles. Because there are a lot of contributing factors I can think of off the top of my head, like men who don't conform as strictly to traditional gender norms are probably more likely to go see a therapist, so they are more likely to see a way out of their situation that doesn't involve suicide. Also, men who more strictly conform to traditional gender norms probably are more likely to have guns in the home, and (as other studies have shown) men tend to prefer suicide by gun over pills/meds/other methods, so I'm curious if that has an impact as well.
Anecdotally I am both of those. I grew up in a deep south military family, and I used to have a sidearm that I assigned way more of my identity to than I should have and thought about using on myself more than i ever thought about using in any other way. I didn't try therapy for the first time until my 30s, after I quit working for the airforce. Telling a man he needed therapy where I used to work was an insult no matter the context, and it was an open secret that you'd get fired if you sought any kind of mental healthcare. (not directly, but some security manager somewhere in the system would revoke your clearances and it would domino from there)
I'm still amazed I made it through that; it feels like almost every week I'm still blown away by how much different the world can be when it isn't just a deluge of bigotry and hatred and doomsday weapons. If you can help it, don't ever fucking make weapons. No matter how much they offer to pay you or pretend you're a hero. It's not worth your will to live
It does, yes
Okay good, thank you. I couldn't find any info in the originally linked article.
That tracks, traditional gender roles are overly restrictive and force people to deny their needs.
Men, nothing wrong with being masculine if you want, but if a woman demands you “man up” for her at the expense of your emotional needs, you’re better off single.
Yeah because we get in there and GET THE JOB DONE. Women are just "yak yak yak" right guys?
Guys...?
guys...?
AW NO BILLY!?! WHYYYY BILLY WHYYYYY. WHY DIDNT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULD HEAR OVER THE CONSTANT NEED FOR US TO TALK ABLUT LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR FEELINGS!?!
Would I get downvoted for pointing out that this is one of the reasons I'm a feminist?
Maybe, but if self interest drives a man to solidarity with women to fight against the patriarchy then most of the women I know who actually read feminist theory would agree that it’s a perfectly valid contributing reason.
I think the patriarchy is bad for everyone. There are a lot of dudes who see male feminists as gender traitors, and it's surprising how many I encounter on Lemmy.
...aaaand downvoted. See?
See. By not allowing me to be a 1940's housewife--minus the spousal abuse--you put me at risk of suicide. Just let me cook, clean, and please my man/woman. 😩
The details make the headline come across like “humans who refuse to acknowledge mental heath and emotional needs are at a higher risk of suicide” which tracks, especially from my American point of view. What passes for manliness, at least for some who really care about being traditionally “manly,” is essentially an excuse to act like a child and/or cope while in denial of mental illness.
With some people it seems like a subconscious addiction to self harm. It can be so hard to have compassion for oneself sometimes. At some point you have to give yourself permission to pursue the things that actually make you happy rather than the things you’re supposed to like. (Details vary based on the individual and their local culture)
At some point you have to give yourself permission to pursue the things that actually make you happy rather than the things you’re supposed to like. (Details vary based on the individual and their local culture)
A banger line. :)
Swit-zerland, fac-tors, mas-culine, show-ing, Lu-cas, respons-es, ideo-logies, patriar-chal, inde-pendance?
Like it doesn't matter? Good grief!
this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2024
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