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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 60 points 1 month ago

My only problem with this is that Geordi made it clear more than once that not only would he rather just be able to see, but that his VISOR caused him constant pain. I wouldn't really call that accommodating for his blindness if that's what was required to get into Starfleet later.

And, of course, that was what made it so impactful when he finally had eyes that worked.

And then there was Melora on DS9. Starfleet could have done so many things to fulfill her dream of traveling the stars without having her be stuck in the chair in near-1g environments or accept Bashir's treatments. In fact, the only reason so few Elaysians ever left their homeworld was that everyone else was fine with 1g and no one gave a shit about their needs.

[-] 14th_cylon@lemm.ee 30 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Geordi made it clear more than once that not only would he rather just be able to see, but that his VISOR caused him constant pain

it was also suggested that his visor was "superior to human eyes". star trek is habitually inconsistent about its world and sometimes it is better not to think about it too much.

[-] jumperalex@lemmy.world 45 points 1 month ago

"curing at birth" != "Eugenics"

Still, the spirit of accommodation is spot on.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

They're not totally wrong either, just missing a step and leaving a gap.

Genetic engineering is strictly outlawed in the UFP which came about from the Eugenics wars.

[-] kemsat@lemmy.world 41 points 1 month ago

Why wouldn’t you cure things at birth if you already know how to? Like, you know the kid is going to be blind, and you could just give the mom a shot to change that, but you’re gonna choose to let the kid be born blind? I dunno, that’s kinda messed up.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Which is one of the arguments against the Federations ban on genetic manipulation. There are plenty of others against it. There's no one answer to this situation, unfortunately.

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[-] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 31 points 1 month ago

Here is my take, assuming:

  • We have the ability to remove all birth anomalies
  • It is safe and effective, i.e. not an experimental technique
  • It is not controversial, i.e. curing sickle cell is just the done thing\
  • Scanning tech is much better than today

Situation 1:
Woman learns she is pregnant, say week 6. Gets a routine scan on the embryo. She discovers it has a genetic disorder. That will cause it to not be able to breathe well, running and playing will not be an option for your baby, they will survive; sweet no brainer there; splice in the fix doc. Correction is spliced in the next week, monitoring for rest of normal pregnancy.

Situation 2:
Woman learns she is pregnant, say week 6. Gets a routine scan on the embryo. Doctor says, looks like there is a genetic defect, the audio nerve is not going to develop normally, your baby will hear badly at birth, and then over the next two years will go permanently deaf. Implants could fix this issue after birth, and living as a deaf person is not difficult. However we can ensure that the nerve develops normally and your baby will have perfectly normal hearing.

In situation 1, the obvious answer is to fix the issue, having life long breathing difficulties that could easily be avoided would be cruel.
In situation 2, in my opinion it would also be cruel to impose on a kid; hey we could have fixed your hearing in a safe and effective way, but we decided for you before you were born that you would be "special".

I get where people are coming from, but they are looking at it with 2024 eyes, not 2424 eyes. Why would you impose on a kid, who has no say in the matter, a disability? Because that is the choice you are making, you are imposing a disability on a child that does not need to be there.

We currently give women folate, to protect against neural tube defects; along with a bunch of other interventions. We are already "interfering" with the "natural" progress of pregnancy and birth, we are only going to get better at it.

And also the conflating of eugenics and fixing birth defects is completely off base. These are only related by the fact that breeding is involved; they have nothing in common beyond that. In the same way that my kitchen knives would make great stabbing weapons, but cooking and stabbing only really have the tools in common.

[-] lunarul@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

And also the conflating of eugenics and fixing birth defects is completely off base

It's not off base and what you're describing is called liberal eugenics, or new eugenics.

[...] some critics, such as UC Berkeley sociologist Troy Duster, have argued that modern genetics is a "back door to eugenics".

I'm sure the laws set in place after the eugenics wars would be strict enough to not leave such wiggle room.

[-] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 7 points 1 month ago

It doesn't really seem like in either situation I described that the treatment-enhancement gap has been breached.

There is no PGD, we are considering Star Trek levels of scanning technology. Both situations resulted from natural fertilisation, there was no group of potentials to select from.

The goal of eugenics, is unambiguously, to breed for some ideal. This resulted in some pretty dark times in the recent past.

Realistically, a lot of medical technology today is the antithesis of the eugenic ideal. Allowing those, who in the past, would have died from various causes to live. We at a species are the stronger for it.

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Ok but for scenario 2 have you asked the deaf? Many of us say to do just that. In fact we disproportionately fight the hearing by saying that infants cannot consent to cochlear implants

[-] absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 9 points 1 month ago

That is an interesting point, as you say infants cannot consent to implants. Which does raise ethical questions.

But you are, I think, still looking from a 2024 perspective, where none of the technologies are even remotely available.

If you can consider it from the 2424 perspective, the treatment is non-invasive, permanent, safe and effective. It has been the standard for 100 years. Star Trek medical tech is magical to us because it is simply a story, but consider if it were real, what argument could you make to withhold the treatment?

I would see this as similar to the anti-vax arguments; withholding vaccines from a child who then goes on to catch a life altering disease, is a form of abuse. The kid cannot make its own judgements or medical decisions, but it sure can catch polio.

[-] RubberDuck@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Would deliberately withholding "cures" be considered child abuse?

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[-] CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world 29 points 1 month ago

The point about accomodation is the key here.

If being born without functioning legs isn't actually an impediment or challenge because society makes allowances for people without legs, then it's no longer a handicap!

If a blind person has options beyond merely having their sight "restored" to that of the baseline "normal", then they have options that might open up paths that regularly sighted people don't have, in which case their unique trait of being blind becomes an asset.

There's the secret to the utopia Star Trek positsv not that we try to "cute" everyone born different, but that we instead create opportunities for them to thrive as they are. In the future of Star Trek, the word "disability" is probably alien to them. Rather, they would describe someone in our time with such challenges as "disenfranchised" because we don't offer them opportunities.

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago

https://youtu.be/bqm_Iq8rFeg?t=16

"Surely by the 24th century, they would have found a cure for male pattern baldness." Gene Roddenberry had the perfect response.

"No, by the 24th century, no one will care."

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

Let it be known, however, that Gene did say this after aggressively petitioning against Patrick Stewart as Captain. His baldness was specifically mentioned. According to Patrick anyway

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

well, he didn't mention that in the bloody video. I blame Patrick Stewart for making me look like a fool.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Patrick has been telling this story for a while at the panels, Frakes and others will tell it too. Sometimes it comes with that caveat and sometimes not. I'll see if I can find the clip where he talks about that.

[-] Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Meanwhile Shatner was stealing half a dozen of Kirk's toupées every season...

[-] HawlSera@lemm.ee 22 points 1 month ago

Why the hell would it be eugenics to cure disabilities. If you could turn me from a trans chick into a cisbabe, I'd be down. I mean on one hand periods will suck, but on the other, maybe my fucking hair will grow out!

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

I’m in the same position, but if I could choose between the best hearing aids the 24th century can offer or repairing my ears, then I’m going full Geordi. Much in the same way I know some trans women wouldn’t make the choice we would.

And that’s the thing, routinely Star Trek shows disabled characters having choices in how to approach their situation and making the choices they feel are right for them. Some people will take a 5% chance of negative consequences to get their legs back, and others will take a futuristic mobility aid instead.

We actually already see this in cochlear implants. They’re difficult; unpleasant, and would give you hearing you don’t otherwise have

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I see names being mentioned and It’s problematic when someone assumes disabilities by armchair diagnosing characters with a disability and then defend it as if it were true.

“I assume normies would find this character annoying as they have some quirky, slight misunderstandings of personal boundaries so I’m going to attribute them with ‘being on the spectrum’”

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

That isn't happening though.

Geordi is blind, Julian was genetically engineered to remove a learning disability and Tilly is stated as having special needs while being aggressively autistically coded.

The only one that doesn't have something directly pointing towards it is Barclay but that man is the textbook definition of Aspergers Syndrome and people have been saying it for decades. It's not like his issues are minor either. They're a significant core component of the character.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

Just FYI, "Asperger's Syndrome" is no longer used as a medical term and some ND people do not care for it being used at all because it divides people on the autism spectrum unnecessarily, especially since there's no real separation in terms of symptoms. Everything falls under "autism spectrum disorder" (ASD) now.

https://www.healthline.com/health/autism/why-is-the-term-aspergers-no-longer-used#the-removal-of-aspergers

(I realize you didn't mean to offend, just letting you know.)

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I never saw LaForge as a "disabled person" at all. In my view he had superpowers. What puzzled me was why other characters didn't wear similar visors. I mean why would blindness be a prerequisite for getting the ability to see in infrared, ultraviolet, etc? Seems like everybody would want that. Especially if it could be ocular implants like he eventually had.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Someone with functioning eyesight wearing the VISOR would just get a mishmash of nonsensical information. Their real senses clash with what the VISOR is sending them. Coincedentally it's also the exact same reason for another side effect. Pain. Despite Geordi not being able to see, his eyes still sort of fought the VISOR and caused him constant pain. It also had the ability to be hacked which isn't a great option.

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Easy technobabble fix - the visor suppresses the optical neurons, or it simply acts as a blindfold so the real eyes see only darkness. LaForge's pain was because the tech wasn't fully developed. I forget if he still had the pain with the prosthetic eyes. Hackability is another problem we probably won't have in the real future because of quantum encryption or whatever, but it's still a good plot device present-day people can relate to - no matter how unrealistically it's portrayed - click-click-click... "okay, I'm in!" LOL.

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[-] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Why is Barclay disabled. Unless being a perv is a disability.

[-] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Holodeck addiction is a disability I guess

[-] Rusty@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

Also what disabilities do Julian and Tilly have?

[-] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 6 points 1 month ago

Tilly is obviously ginger

Lt. Barclay has an anxiety disorder which greatly interferes with his ability to live his life as he wants to.

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[-] darthsid@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

They could solve racism by ensuring everyone has the same colour at birth! /s

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 29 points 1 month ago

The only thing I can think of whenever I hear that is, hilariously, an episode of Fairly Odd Parents.

Timmy wished for everyone to be a grey blob so racism couldn't exist. People still kept saying they were grey-er or blobbier.

People just gonna hate.

[-] EmpathicVagrant@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Honestly that show was and is so far ahead it needs a cameo ship in trek. It would be like other federation ships, with nacelles that look like wings and a little crown floating nearby.

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[-] anarchrist@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Or they could just bang each other. In fact I'm kind of alarmed at how decidedly unmixed people still are in whatever year it is supposed to be

[-] zaphod@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 month ago

Very few characters are ever seen wearing glasses.

[-] Zip2@feddit.uk 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Is over thinking tv shows a disability? Asking for a friend, obviously.

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 month ago

If me writing a 20 page essay about my favorite TV show and being a major contributor to the wiki counts as a disability, then I want a parking permit.

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[-] MintyAnt@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

STRICTLY PROHIBITED (unless you're a good boy doctor)

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago

His parents paid the price.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Why the fuck is Julian mentioned here along with the actually differently abled characters? He was genetically enhanced as a youth because his parents thought he was a little slow.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Well... you just sort of answered why.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 6 points 1 month ago

I just feel like, at best, he's more of an example of the other camp. He didn't have anything wrong with him, his parents just wanted him to be more.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

In Bashir's own words:

"Small for my age, a bit awkward physically, not very bright. In the first grade, while the other children were learning how to read and write and use the computer, I was still trying to tell a dog from a cat, a tree from a house. I didn't really understand what was happening. I knew that I wasn't doing as well as my classmates. There were so many concepts that they took for granted that I couldn't begin to master and I didn't know why. All I knew was that I was a great disappointment to my parents."

When he talks to his parents about it they talk about how they saw him "fallling farther behind each day" and that's why they did the treatments. They loved him and did want him to be more, but the cause was quite clearly a learning or mental disability of some variety. The treatments started at 7 years old and first grade would have been at 5 or 6. If you're not able to tell a tree from a house at 5 or 6 then there's something far more wrong than simply being slow.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm not a Trekkie, but I see this mentality a lot in fantasy settings. "Why would there be wheel chair users when a simple healing spell would cure it?" 🙄

Edit: in case it's confusing, I meant the idea that disabilities shouldn't exist in fantasy because of magic is annoying.

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There's always the way to rationize that a medical problem can't be fixed because of individual traits - for example, in the Wrath of Khan, Kirk needs reading glasses because he's allergic to the drug they normally use to treat vision problems.

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this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
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