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submitted 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) by Beardsley@lemmy.world to c/gaming@lemmy.ml

I think gamers as a whole, though specifically those in niche communities, need to take a long and hard look at themselves. We should celebrate the volunteers that create wonderful content for us, generally with no financial gain. Instead, commonly, there are communities that criticize and tear down every little thing they can think of. They even went as far as to doxx the poor woman. We need to be better, and we need to hold these kind of toxic trolls accountable. Especially those of us who are men, we have a responsibility to call out other men who mistreat women in the gaming industry, or gaming in general.

*Edit: I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all. My sentiment is that many of us do not think about this kind of thing, and less are willing to speak out against their friends. We need to be better about that as a whole. I appreciate you as a person if you are already of this mindset.

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[-] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 26 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

This isn't even about gaming, necessarily.

Girls who code are rare. There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female. And a hell of a lot more men.

And I'm in a progressive city in a progressive state.

I work in IT, and I think there is one woman out of 50 employees on my corner of the org chart, and that's the CIO's admin assistant.

I'm certain it's culture, and it doesn't just go for programming, it goes for almost all of STEM. There was a recent "Stuff You Should Know" episode about toy chemistry sets, and they made it a point to talk about the marketing, and how it always was with boys, for boys. My son, 8 year old kid, says "that's just wrong! Girls can do all that stuff!". He's got it figured out.

[-] LordGimp@lemm.ee 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

As a welder, I've had a female coworker ONCE in 15 years working in the industry. My current work doesn't even have a bathroom for women in the same building as most of the workers. If we did hire a female welder, she'd have to walk across the parking lot to the administration building to actually use a women's bathroom.

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[-] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 114 points 3 days ago

I don't want you to feel like you're getting it from all sides but...

I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all

You really gotta ignore those "not all gamers" type of posters. They are literally adding nothing to the conversation. If you are a normal person who doesn't harass women only, then you should also be a normal person who doesn't take offense when the community as a whole is criticized.

[-] KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com 29 points 3 days ago

I always hate these kinds of responses. Let me just go to the extreme, would you say the same if someone made broad negative generalizations about a race?

[-] pyre@lemmy.world 49 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

no? how do you even think there's a parallel there? gamer isn't a race. there's nothing essential about gaming. the parallel would be making generalizations about football fans. not a fucking race.

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[-] brad_troika@lemmy.world 29 points 3 days ago

If you're a woman keep your drinks covered around men. Responding not all men is pointless even tho I'm a man and I don't think women should be afraid of me but I get it that they could be and the person that could help change this the most is me and men not women.

And again this is a pointless tangent to the original statement.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 6 points 3 days ago

This comment made my eyes roll out of my head.

[-] griefstricken@lemmy.ml 21 points 3 days ago

Ah yes, the gamer race. I wish I could show this message to Adolph Reed.

[-] Matshiro@szmer.info 12 points 3 days ago

If you are not part of the problem - it should not offend you, so that generalization is ok, because tbh a lot of us need to stop and think.

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

To be fair, I assumed people would understand I don't mean gamers as a whole are like this. I think we all have a responsibility, but I also think the majority of gamers (at least in my age group) are reasonable and show respect.

I see where you're going with negative generalizations on race, but it's a completely different ball field. I could probably think of many reasons why, but my main argument is that the general group of "gamers" have never had to face any real existential adversity. No one ever put us in chains, stole our children, etc. on the basis that we play games.

[-] Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 day ago

"Gamers" are also a group one elects to be a member of, while one is categorized into a race, sex or gender from birth. One is elective, the other is descriptive. No one chooses to be black, or white, or born with male or female genitalia, etc, etc. And a lot of negative views are often along the lines of a rare bad thing being more likely performed by a certain demographic being extrapolated to accuse that demographic of being dangerous or harmful in general (usually an out-group, though under some ideologies it's only acceptable to have this view with a target perceived to be the in-group - as regards blame they essentially reverse the perceived in- and out-group roles).

To turn it around on you though, imagine we picked some other elective group (a hobby, a political or ideological leaning, that sort of thing) that you are likely to look positively upon (and maybe even be a member of) and did the same kind of thing. Let's say...feminists? Would it be acceptable to accuse feminism or feminists of anything negative I can point to any group thereof doing, and if you aren't one of the ones who actually does that then you should not take offense, right? Not feel defensive at all, not question or challenge the assertion at all, right?

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 49 points 3 days ago

Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.

As others pointed out, most people do appreciate it, but they tend to be silent about it, whilst a small minority are demanding little whinny bitches (in a non-gendered way) who think they're owed service and some are even trolls.

To those reading this, I suggest when you get something you like for free you at least give some feedback that you liked it and, if the person has some kind of sponsoring scheme going on and you really like it, consider contributing, if only to incentivise more of the same.

Those on the other side are people too and they will appreciate it.

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[-] Kyrgizion@lemmy.world 165 points 4 days ago

The only interaction I've ever had with authors of mods and such was sending them thanks for their hard work. Sad.

[-] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 148 points 4 days ago

Good for her for making the right decision for her own wellbeing. Too many sad little fucks on the Internet who spend all their time harassing others. Pathetic existence.

[-] ramble81@lemm.ee 69 points 4 days ago

This is the sexism that we saw come out during the election. We thought the country was getting better but they were just quietly simmering but connecting online.

I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 28 points 3 days ago

We thought the country was getting better

Who the hell thought the country was getting better? No one I know. This is the same weak basket of deplorables excuse the DNC used for Hillary Clinton’s loss. Because they’ll blame anyone but themselves for their failures.

The Democrats fail because they’ve embraced grinding neoliberalism for an entire generation, because they abandoned the working class long ago. The DNC crushed Sanders—twice—because even a little social safety net, as a treat, is a bridge too far for them. Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed

I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.

Fascism isn’t on the rise in the US in particular and the West in general for no reason. The cause is ever-worsening neoliberalism, which is monopoly capitalism in decay. I wrote about this two months ago, but I’ll spare everyone the copypasta and just link to it.

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[-] black_lugia@sh.itjust.works 70 points 4 days ago

"gamers as a whole"

leave me out of this i didnt do anything.

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 87 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

The sentiment is that we all have a responsibility to hold our community accountable for this type of behavior.

You can disagree, it is likely a matter of philosophy. I feel a responsibility to try to put more positive influence to the world, and to call out harmful actions. Not everyone does, that is fine too, albeit a little sad.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 44 points 4 days ago

Lol you're getting downvoted for having a rational viewpoint and wanting something you care about and enjoy to be safe for other humans to enjoy it too.

How fucking dare you

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 29 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Lolol. Win some, lose some, it doesn't really matter. I made my point and am satisfied with that; it's anyone's right to disagree with me.

And if I am in the wrong for wanting a better community, then the state of humanity just makes me a little more sad. Far from surprised, however.

"Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what makes you cheer!"

[-] Flamekebab@piefed.social 24 points 4 days ago

"Our community" feels a bit monolithic. It's like saying "film watchers" or "readers". Lumping anyone that plays video games regularly into a single social group feels unhelpfully reductive.

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[-] SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 52 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

"I poured many years of my life into this, just to feel empty. In quitting, I have found my real passion, and have been obsessively working on music. I've even released my first ever album, SPIDERWEB PRINCESS, which is filled with my darkest, most genuine feelings from all of my experiences. Nothing I've ever done has ever been so meaningful to me. I have so much of myself to share with the world, and I'd much rather be remembered for something I actually enjoy."

Apparently her new passion is music. SPIDERWEB PRINCESS

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[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 71 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I don't understand people who "demand" things from volunteers. Open source devs, modders, and still recently content creators are/were treated like public service workers, by some.

Imagine if we went around treating artists as if they were obligated to please each of us individually with their every piece? I'm very happy to see this attitude improve with streaming and youtube, where creators are more and more met with care and support when they have to step away for a bit or retire entirely.

It sadly seems like this modder was eventually putting in tremendous effort, in a vain attempt to please absolutely everyone using her mods. But that isn't a good reason to work for free.

Any work I do for free, is something I do because I want to, but this modder explicitly says she did work she didn't want to do in order to please fans. And I can't help but ask, why? (I know why, but someone should have cared enough to show her she is allowed to just say no, and do whatever she prefers.)

The blurb about her doing music is how you're SUPPOSED to feel doing something for fun. I'm happy that she found her way to something that makes her feel that way.

[-] LwL@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

People do this with artists too. Especially the moment you offer anything in the way of free commissions for a specific community and such.

Many forums had gfx threads, where members who enjoy putting together banners and such would offer to make something for those who asked. A good friend of mine ran one in a certain game's forum for a while and the absolute entitlement in which some of those people acted (in regards to speed and nitpicking about minor things) was disgusting. It was maybe 1 in 25 people but it soured the whole thing for her, understandably so. The moment you give people a little finger wrt their requests, one of those people will take the whole hand. The same likely applies to modding.

And I'm sure being a woman doing gaming stuff isn't helping because there's way too much sexism in gaming culture, even though there are also a lot of subcommunities that are super welcoming to everyone.

[-] Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 day ago

The moment you give people a little finger wrt their requests, one of those people will take the whole hand. The same likely applies to modding.

I suppose that depends on which finger.

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[-] darthelmet@lemmy.world 47 points 4 days ago

People are asses sometimes, but whenever these conversations come up, I wonder: What do you even want from us? How are random people on the internet supposed to hold random anonymous trolls on the internet “accountable?” You can call them asses, but so? What if they don’t care? They’re anonymous. You could get mods to ban them, but if it’s a free service they can always make another anonymous account. It’s even more confusing in the context of something like an online game as opposed to a forum. What are you supposed to do about someone being an ass when you’ve probably never seen them before and probably won’t see them again?

[-] Beardsley@lemmy.world 25 points 4 days ago

I mean, call them asses. Maybe they don't care, maybe they do, but we keep the problem relevant by being vocal against this kind of thing. To not do anything at all is to encourage trolls.

[-] yamanii@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

The phrase is "don't feed the trolls", not the contrary.

[-] TexasDrunk@lemmy.world 19 points 4 days ago

The prevailing wisdom for dealing with trolls in the past has been report, block, and move on. You never know if someone is going to thrive on that kind of conflict and a whole lot of motherfuckers love it.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong because honestly I don't know. I'm just sad they're running off people contributing to their community and mad that they're sexually harassing people.

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[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 32 points 4 days ago

IMO the vast majority of people that use community mods are pretty thankful and just enjoy them despite any issues the mod has so long as overall it works well. They just play and keep their mouths shut.

There are a few that offer real and constructive criticism.

And the rest are the vocal trolls that just hate on everything. Unfortunately if they aren't "fucking your mother last night" on whatever game chat you might be on they're busy trashing on the "unplayable" game they've spent 500 hours playing in the last several months or on the forums berating the modders' efforts. They're just hateful people and hating on women in general is par for the course, if one dares participating in gaming they're just another target for their shitty incel behavior.

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 18 points 3 days ago

If you’re assumed to be a male, the trolls attack you if you don’t carry them. Fine, move on.

If they find out you’re female, they attack you just for existing. You can move on but It is relentless.

There is a difference in gaming experience when it comes to trolls.

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A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.

[-] Silentiea 2 points 2 days ago

-Agent K

- Michael Scott

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[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 37 points 4 days ago

now before anyone gets misled by some of the reddit threads gamesradar linked to, some quotes from the relevant reddit thread:

I worked extensively on most of her mods. In the period immediately following the Daegon 2.0 controversy, I tracked down several recurring trolls (people here might remember them as cycling through Reddit usernames like "SeranasStankPussy" and other such things) as originating from literal Kiwifarms.

She made a female follower mod called Daegon. It was a suggestive follower with sexy voice and looks, and "bratty princess" personality.

There was an idea about developing romance option for the follower. The fans were so excited about it. However she ended up adding a bodyguard character as Daegon's romantic partner instead of opening the options to player. Daegon also had a major backstory rewrite, which was deemed as straying too far from TES lore. Fans felt betrayed. The backlash was so fervently hostile that anything the author posted always received downvotes and she was demeaned/harassed for posting anything (something like "you dare to show your face here?"), even when it's not related to Daegon.

At the time, she removed the old version and people leaked her discord server chat, which was very hostile and demeaning to the people complaining.

Basically: the mod author developed and people on her discord developed a para-social relationship and it went as expected. You can search this sub for that whole thing

There's more details on her discord (as usual):

my photos get passed around on skyrim servers, im called a slut and whore, and for what?

gamesradar linked to a few of the threads that got overwhelmed with trolls, who amplified how she blocked users (some of which inappropriately) from her mod pages and claimed she encouraged her fans to doxx people based on a single out-of-context screenshot of a random discord fan.

[-] FenrirIII@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

I had once respectfully provided feedback to that mod author because their female companion character (Daegon) was the worst kind of Mary Sue and complained nonstop. Author banned me from all their forums because they couldn't accept valid criticism.

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[-] LongboardingLad@lemmy.world 20 points 3 days ago

Stuff like this is why I don't tell people I game. The Gamer Stink is real and I don't want to be guilty by association. Seriously, go touch grass. The things that you're denigrating someone else for are pixels and code on a computer. Find some way to not be garbage humans.

Her music is interesting. Hope she ends up happier

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 days ago

Gam*rs need reeducation.

[-] WatDabney@sopuli.xyz 26 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

This broad dynamic isn't new and it isn't unique either to gaming or to men. Every single creative volunteer community on the net is filled with assholes and drama llamas, of any and all genders. It's just the nature of the thing. You see the same things over and over with game modding, cracking, romhacking, emulation, manga scanlation, anime fansubbing, vocaloid production, mmd modeling, fanfic, fanart, and so on and on.

People often (generally?) are willing to invest the time and energy into whatever it is that they're going to post online at least in large part because they crave the attention they hope it will bring, and specifically, they want to be lauded for their talent and skill.

And that often runs up against the fact that an awful lot of the responses they're going to get are going to come from self-absorbed and entitled assholes bitching because they don't like whatever it is that they're getting for free, and think they have to be accommodated.

And very often, the response from the creator, unsurprisingly really, is to effectively (or even literally) say, "Fine then - fuck you all. I'm done."

And 'round and 'round it goes, and has from the start, and likely will never stop. It's just an unfortunate but pretty much inevitable clash between a personality type that's likely to create and share something online for free and a personality type that's likely to comment on something somebody else created and shared with them for free.

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this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024
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