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[-] miak@lemmy.world 91 points 1 month ago

I may be misremembering, but I believe the way things were originally designed was that the Senate was supposed to represent the states, not the people. The house represented the people. That's why the Senate has equal representation (because the states were meant to have equal say), and the house proportionate to population.

[-] MumboJumbo@lemmy.world 52 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That is correct. The state legislatures generally (if not always) picked the senators, but due to huge state corruption, it was almost always political qui pro quo, and some states even going full terms without selecting sla sentaor. This led to the 17th amendment (which you'll here rednecks and/or white supremacists asposing, because states' rights.)

Edit to add: Wikipedia knows it better than I do.

[-] miak@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Appreciate the extra details and the link!

[-] invertedspear@lemm.ee 14 points 1 month ago

This is correct, and this part of the system works fine. What should have happened though is a population break point where a state has to break up if they exceed a certain population. CA should be at least 3 states. New York needs a split as well, probably a few others. There is no way a state can serve its population well when the population is measured in the tens of millions.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I agree in theory, but big cities are where things get muddy.

When a single city (e.g. New York City, population ~8 million just to use the biggest example) has a population larger than entire states, how do you "split" the state of New York? If the city itself, excluding any of the surrounding "metro area", was its own state, it would be the 13th most populous in the US and also the smallest by area.

Do we carve up each of the boroughs as a separate state, and give New York City 10 senators? It would be more proportional representation for the people of NYC, but also their close proximity and interdependence would very much align their priorities and make them a formidable voting bloc. And even then, you could still fit 4 Vermonts worth of people into Brooklyn alone. How much would we need to cut to make it equitable? Or do we work the other way as well and tell Vermont it no longer gets to be its own state because there aren't enough people?

For states like California, which still have large cities but not quite to the extreme of New York, how do we divide things fairly? Do we take a ruler and cut it into neat thirds, trying to leave some cities as the nucleus of each new state? Or do we end up with the state of California (area mostly unchanged), the state of Los Angeles, and the state of The Bay Area?

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 7 points 1 month ago

Are we bringing back city-states? We already have city-counties.

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[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 83 points 1 month ago

They came up with the best thing they could agree on at the time. They did not intend on it to become sacred, untouchable, and without the ability to change with the times, and sometimes we have changed it. Just not quite enough times.

It may be one of those myths, but I remember that one of the founders initially were proposing the constitution to be rewritten every 10 years.

[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 60 points 1 month ago

19 years, in a letter from Jefferson to Madison.

To James Madison from Thomas Jefferson, 6 September 1789

He thought that firstly no document or law could be forever relevant, so it needed revisioning occasionally, and the 19 years seems to tie into the idea of each generation taking a new look and either accepting existing laws as still good or making changes.

[-] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The French Revolution created an easier method for reforming The Republic and rewriting their constitution.

They enshrined the revolutionary aspects of revolution instead of its leaders.

That said the Federalists got part of the idea from ancient Lycia on having proportional representation and then added in keeping it in check by another chamber with equal footing.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230906-the-ancient-civilisation-that-inspired-us-democracy

It is a good idea. But we need more Congresspersons to lower the people each congressperson represents. It was ~95,000 in 1940 ... in 2020 it is closer to 750,000 per congresscritter.

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[-] Moah 70 points 1 month ago

It's a government by rich owners for rich owners and it's working as designed

[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

I mean, that's most governments

[-] dingdongmetacarples@lemmy.world 54 points 1 month ago

Don't forget, those senators translate to electoral college votes.

[-] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 40 points 1 month ago

Them plus the house reps, which are artificially capped at a low number, again benefitting the low population states

[-] Sgt_choke_n_stroke@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Diddnt they cap the amount of house of representatives?

[-] qyron@sopuli.xyz 32 points 1 month ago
[-] Jumi@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

In Germany we have two votes, one for a local representative and one for a party. In itself it's a pretty decent system

[-] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yet, the local representatives in the pairlaments (Bundestag, Landtag) represent districts of approximately the same population number. Thus, in our first chamber, no vote has more value than another.

But in the Bundesrat, which comes closest to the US senate, states with higher population number do have more representatives than small states, which weakens the inequality of votes, yet still one vote from Bremen (population 700k, 3 representatives) has 13 times as much value as one from NRW (p. 18 mio, 6 rep.).

[-] Jumi@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

I'm not really happy with our democracy. It always feels like our say stops at the ballot box, we need more direct democracy.

[-] laranis@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 month ago

Eight years ago I would have agreed. But, I think we've demonstrated the short comings of putting authority for our most important policies in the hands of your average citizen.

I don't have a better answer, mind you. Hopefully someone way further right on the "average citizen" bell curve has better ideas.

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[-] turmoil@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago

The German system is what the US would have been if they would have regularly updated their constitution.

[-] zqps@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It was largely modelled after the US, with bugfixes applied. It definitely has issues but isn't remotely as fucked as a partisan 2-party system.

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[-] beebarfbadger@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

But then the poor would run the country instead of a handful of unimaginably rich individuals! What kind of democracy would THAT be?

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[-] Dry_Monk@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

But look at the US popular vote. Even with different representation of the populace, this election would still have been fucked. We do need massive reform of the US voting structure, but this is not the biggest thing. Getting rid of first past the post in favor of at least ranked choice would make a much bigger difference.

That would open the door for a true left wing party to actually have a voice.

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[-] Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world 18 points 1 month ago

It is as it needed to be to get the states to sign on. But times have changed, and it needs to as well

[-] masterofn001@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 month ago

Can we get 25 million volunteers to move proportionally to red states for the next few years?

[-] yeahiknow3@lemmings.world 18 points 1 month ago

I moved to a red state. Absolutely awful. Don’t do it. Texas is an irremediable shit hole.

[-] McNasty@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago

West Virginia checking in

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[-] 5715@feddit.org 9 points 1 month ago

Half a million movers per month would both wreck California and rural states real quick.

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Lol if enough democrats moved to texas and flipped it blue, we would never have a republican president again.

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[-] theuniqueone@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 1 month ago

Representative democracy is unstable and corruptible by design and it can't be anything else.

[-] derf82@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Blame Connecticut. It’s their fault. It would up benefiting the South, but it was Delaware and CT mad about larger states having more a say.

The South actually wanted proportional representation. They were growing faster and had more land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Compromise

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 month ago

It would be somewhat OK if the House was much more powerful relative to the Senate, similar to how the (unelected) Canadian Senate rarely if ever opposes the will of the House.

To be fair, small states would never agreed to the constution without the senate.

Southern states would not have agreed to the constitution without the 3/5 compromise.

The United States would not exist without these compromises. The constitition is, as CGP Grey calls it, a Compromise-titution.

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

Why don't the more populous states, the larger of the two groups, simply eat the small states?

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[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don't even care so much about the Bicameral Compromise; but I do care that the electoral votes apply toward electing the President.

[-] Dragonstaff@leminal.space 10 points 1 month ago

The reapportionment act of 1929 is screwing us over in the electoral college. The House should have a LOT more representatives, which would make the it more fair.

But more representatives would make it more difficult for big businesses to bribe them, and nobody is going to vote to dilute their personal power, so changing that is a nonstarter.

[-] rezz@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Extremely low IQ meme considering this is the intended purpose of the senate.

[-] lugal@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago

Disagreeing with the intention of some 1700s guys is extremely low IQ?

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[-] dnick@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 month ago

To be fair, it is the united ´states´, not the united ´people living on the continent´. It wouldn’t be any more fair if California was making the decisions for 20 other states, just because they happen to have a crap load of people. The federal government is kind of supposed to be making decisions and maintaining things between states, not all these decisions affecting the people so directly.

[-] ronalicious@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

to be fair? fuck that. the states represent people, just arguing 'states rights' is disingenuous at this point.

land shouldn't vote, but the way our government currently is functioning, regardless of what our slaveholding 'founding fathers' intended, is an absolute mess.

and I don't accept your argument in good faith.

edit. a word

[-] ABCDE@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

It wouldn’t be any more fair if California was making the decisions for 20 other states

U wot

[-] Hoohoo@fedia.io 8 points 1 month ago

Electorates per capita work better because they give the population of a country an equal amount of electable government. Positioning them as just Californians makes them a lower class citizen of the United States with lesser representation.

It also means that criminals will recognise the power of the Republican states and side with them for effect.

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[-] itslilith 7 points 1 month ago

No, it would be fair if California and the 20 other states had the same say. Laws should be by people, for people. Every person should have the same voting power and political representation. In a democracy, people vote, not land, or "states", or anything else. People.

[-] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 month ago

I always thought it'd be interesting if one senator were elected only by the most populous municipality in each state.

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this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2024
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