I feel like this is probably pretty effective. I feel like it should be a thing.
E: see also https://beehaw.org/post/16953380 E2: https://19thnews.org/2024/11/4b-movement-south-korea-social-media-trump-presidency/
Ciswomen were having sex?
Then wait, why are there so many incels?
Joking aside, there actually have been times when I've been at a social event and I'm gonna fuck a guy because why not... but he starts going off on incel bullshit and how far right he is because "Women aren't women" anymore, and I'm like... "Yeah I gotta go.." while thinking "Can't believe he talked his way OUT of a sure thing."
So I fully understand why there are so many incels.
"Can't believe he talked his way OUT of a sure thing."
People are great at stealing defeat from the jaws of victory!
Kind of the theme of the week, no?
Wouldn't this just create even more conservatives if they are the only ones having children? Seems counterintuitive.
it’s also a quite terf movement. It basically mirrors MGTOW. I don’t think people should follow them.
I'm fine with no sex if those Nazi men can't have any too!
so, because punishing all women is bad, it’s a good idea to punish all men?
here’s an alternative: don’t fuck republicans… they’re the ones trying to control women.
They're not obligated to date men though, if they want to participate in 4B then I don't see what's wrong with that. They are allowed to assert their bodily autonomy, it's a form of protest against how they are treated
go ahead and pretend like i’m saying women are obligated to do something or not….
i’m not saying anything like that, but go ahead and argue with imaginary people
Okay cool. So if we agree that individuals are not obligated to date men, then it follows that choosing not to do so is not a punishment towards men. A punishment requires a penalty or deprivation, and since dating is not a requirement, there can be no deprivation occurring.
This movement was not created to punish some men who feel entitled to a relationship, it's (primarily) to advocate for their rights and against the expectations they are subject to.
It has been pointed out to me that it might constitute a punishment for a subset of entitled men so this is not entirely accurate. That said, I would still say it is unjustified to frame this as a punishment of all men, especially considering that subset of entitled men likely constitutes of the very people in favor of removing rights from women.
A punishment requires a penalty or deprivation, and since dating is not a requirement, there can be no deprivation occurring.
Fwiw, a common example of a punishment removing something that is desired but not required is temporarily taking away X from a rowdy kid, be it phone, snacks, etc, which does poke a hole in that assertion.
Thank you, I hadn't thought about that, you're right.
Would you say then that that form of punishment only affects someone who believes they are entitled to something they typically get? (I can't see how it would affect someone that doesn't get something, and I don't see how it would affect someone that doesn't feel entitled to it)
Then, in opposition of what I said, I do agree it would punish a subset of entitled men. I will add an edit to what I said if I've understood this correctly.
Yes, I'd agree that for it to be a punishment entitlement would need to be involved - for example nobody feels punished that they didn't win the lotto by buying one ticket.
Entitlement can take the form of the status quo, whether or not that's justified is not a conversation I have enough critical thinking for.
I think what I haven't seen cleared up in this thread is there are actually two reasons for 4b floating around - one is to try and bring about societal change by crashing the birth rate, but the other is simply out of safety and self-preservation of women. If we focus on the latter, it makes sense that women in more dangerous societies will choose 4b more often than those where they feel safer.
The conclusion I come to is that 4b will be more common in states that do not value the bodily autonomy/safety of women, which I'd say largely points to conservative states.
In a way, if safety and bodily autonomy is the reason for choosing 4b, it will self-regulate to not "punish" or affect those who generally vote to pass policies treating women properly.
I think there was some nuance that was lost in the call for "all" women to participate in 4b
Thanks for the clarification, I'd rather not get something wrong because of a misunderstanding.
I definitely agree with you, it seems logical that the 4B movement would become more popular in the areas where there are bigger threats to the autonomy and safety of women, self-preservation (and solidarity for that matter) is an extremely important factor.
That said, I do understand why there is a call for "all" women to participate. Having more women participating across a country seems like it would increase resistance of some members of the national/federal government to stripping away more rights away from women. It's quite a complicated subject.
Agreed on all counts. Thanks for the conversation and differing perspectives. I hope you have a good weekend!
Thank you as well, have a good weekend!
entirely incorrect
It's not punishing anyone as much as asserting our bodily autonomy, but go off. Targeting Republicans means no pressure is applied to anyone else to change society. Not every woman will participate in the strike. The effects of it have to be wide reaching.
It's a widespread denial of the institutions behind gender relationships. Saying that the system is dangerous for women and refusing to participate in it.
but go off.
oh look, zero chance that you’re actually trying to have a conversation… yaaay internet.
Not every woman will participate in the strike.
almost none will, but if they did, it’s not going to be republican women….
They could’ve been telling you to go off because the not all men argument is unnecessary and pedantic. Obviously it’s not all men, but it’s enough of them that nobody should have to specify only the misogynists, racists, rapists, etc.
It has always been bizarre to me that good people lump themselves in with them. You don’t have to be defensive! You can understand nuance!
I give it about 6 months of this strategy before conservative men will be paid to pretend to be leftists in order to impregnate women, so I understand the "don't fuck any man" strategy.
I feel like this is probably pretty effective. I feel like it should be a thing.
It isn't. They will simply import women from other countries. And this election alone proves the fact that all women are not a monolithic group. You're not going to get a majority to follow this trend.
It seems to have had the desired effect elsewhere. Also I'm not sure if it's required for women to be a monolithic group. This assumption is based on the gender divide in the current election. Regardless, Trump's policies are going to have a natural impact and decreasing birth rate just due to financial strain so if there are multiple factors that are impacting the numbers that's all the better right?
Korea IS A monolith when it comes to a number of factors. Culturally Korea is the antithesis of "diverse".
My point is that America is nothing similar to Korea culturally to pull this off.
Given how reactionary the average Gen Z guys are, this is less of a protest and more of a self-preservation tactic.
Because young men will have a much easier time getting laid when abortion is restricted nationwide and contraceptives are harder to get 🙄 talk about shooting yourself in the dick
Jokes on you, they're just going to go full Roman Empire and take twink concubines, apparently.
Matt Gaetz has entered the chat
I started this in 2016 in the lead up to the election. Got sterilized in 2022 after the Dobbs decision leaked. Too many guys are secret misogynists at best, and pro rape/anti-abortion at worst. The lectures I had to do to convince my ex that rape is rape, whether you fight off the perp or not.
Given that the new agenda is to end birth control, no-fault divorce and spousal rape laws, a lot of women are about to have no say past the first one. Don't get married, and if you're in a bad marriage try to get out ASAP.
The problem, if you look at the data, is lots of women voted for Trump too.
Me, a lesbian: Aktivsm
Yeah, and men who support women's right. Need to support this as well.
Seriously, look at recent events in Texas. Having sex with women while republicans are in power. It is a potential death sentence for those women.
Unless you can groove beyond doubt, one off you is infertile. And honestly, given the way some republicans are. Only trust your own eyes on the microscope when checking. Because forcing doctors to lie to women is far from beyond some of these people.
Honestly, leaving the US for a more liberal nation is the only safe option the way things are looking.
I mean, considering how many incels voted for trump, I think we're pretty much already there. Many of the young men who voted red this election already have no close relationships with any women their age. Obviously women should exercise their autonomy as they see fit. I don't expect it to change how anyone votes.
I'll probably be downvoted for this, but progressives have spent the last several years actively shutting down lines of communication with men, particularly white men. For the best of reasons, sure, but it hasn't been an effective strategy for winning elections.
Maybe this would sway some group of center-left men who didn't bother voting, but realistically I expect it will have no effect on the ongoing polarization, or exagerrate it.
I wonder if this results in more kids being raised in brainwashy conservative families.
It's interesting that the response to men going their own way (MGTOW) is indifference or at most pity whilst WGTOW are met with hostility.
Mgtow was not met with indifference. They've been consistently criticized since the movement first started, and they quickly evolved into a cabal of Nazi-adjacent freaks. Fuck those guys.
There may be some good that could come from a men's movement for self actualization and improvement, but mgtow sure as shit wasn't that
MGTOW should be indifferent, but they kinda got hijacked into another red pill BS place. Their lives revolve around hate for women and not actually going your own way and finding what makes you content.
Everyone in here arguing against 4b need to take a look in the mirror. The fact that so many of you are trying push against it is in itself a demonstration of why it's necessary. Respecting bodily autonomy does not have to be hard.
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