Honestly, I agree men's issues do need to be seriously discussed, but it's wrong to hijack discussion about women's issues to talk about men's issues. The reverse is also true.
I've actually seen the opposite happen more often than the former. Both online and irl. A guy starts complaining about things and a cacophony of women show up to tell him how he'll never understand what it's like to be a woman.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
Both scenarios are possible and it is shitty to use whataboutism in both scenarios.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
When it’s not being used as a whataboutism.
When it’s not being used as a whataboutism.
Ever seen a discussion about men complaining that they are assumed to be a threat just for being male get derailed by comments that it isn't a problem worth complaining about compared to women's issues? Or when the topic of how sexual abuse of boys is extremely common gets derailed as not really being an issue and dismissed by crime stats that often exclude non-penatrating sexual assaults?
Yes it sucks when whataboutism is used to dismiss complaints, but it is also frustrating that the same whataboutism is used to silence discussion that is about the issues that men face.
Ever seen a discussion about men complaining that they are assumed to be a threat just for being male get derailed by comments that it isn't a problem worth complaining about compared to women's issues?
No I haven’t ever seen that. But that would be an example of whataboutism so pretty shitty thing to say.
Or when the topic of how sexual abuse of boys is extremely common gets derailed as not really being an issue and dismissed by crime stats that often exclude non-penatrating sexual assaults?
No I haven’t ever seen thing either but again that is dismissive and a terrible way to invalidate a legitimate problem.
Yes it sucks when whataboutism is used to dismiss complaints, but it is also frustrating that the same whataboutism is used to silence discussion that is about the issues that men face.
So you feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
So feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
I am saying whataboutism is to commonly used to dismiss both men's and women's issues and it sucks in both cases.
So you feel whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men? Or do you agree that that is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender?
They're agreeing with you it seems to me, and sharing their anecdotes that despite that reality which they agree with, let me re-emphasize that, despite that reality (that using one gender's struggles to whatabout another's is considered both ineffective and borders on conflict-seeking, inherently), that in their experience, they have seen the same the same whatabout tactics used to dismantle discussion when a "male centric" issue is the discussion catalyst, as when it's a "female centric" issue originating the discourse.
I can't speak for that other commenter to your follow up question though, so I'll answer it for myself: I do not feel that whataboutism/dismissive responses are only used against men, no.
As a matter of fact, I feel that they're employed more often to stiffle discussions on "woman centric" concerns precisely because of how little Men's issues are discussed, and the reason for both is the same. That this is a side effect of the patriarchal systems in place doesn't absolve either side from the requirement to be genuine if genuine discourse is sought, though.
I have seen what the commenter is mentioning and right here on Lemmy to boot. Because whether male or female, a whatabout is an easy rhetorical blanket to reach for, and many do.
I believe that both genders (including and specially men, who must own up to the fact that collectively we're the gender with the greater frequency of offense against other genders if we're ever going to get to addressing why it's the same systemic patriarchal roots binding women's rights that choke out the existence of men's rights issues) have to be willing to communicate.
Women in aggregate are crying to be heard, but "TooManyMen" aren't listening that they're (women) speaking for them both too, and I feel those men who are able to hear some of that message need to help out in stopping the whataboutism wall in their brothers before they get going...
The same way that I believe there's women who need to do the same for many of their sisters in the public square.
Divided is how we've gotten to this, unapologetically more viscerally dangerous for womanhood world that pretty much always has been, but I feel that it is united that we'll reach any dreams of equity or widespread understanding between the genders, if we ever will.
In short, I agree "that that [whataboutism tainting discourse] is not a good way to respond to legitimate issues regardless of gender", but the mere axiomatic observation falls short of the next step:
Both sides need to acknowledge and give each other the room to voice out their feelings, views, ideas, etc, genuinely (trolls and agitators need not be entertained) while still keeping an eye for the possibility that unity lies not in knowing the correct answer but in the shared questioning.
Fellas let's do (and encourage our brothers to) better whether we think it's fair or not, and ladies, understand (and share with the sisters who it's safe to) that a hypocrite and someone whose barriers are breaking will appear briefly as the same before change is undergone.
Go start your own thread then if it's important to you. That's the whole point, don't hijack the conversation. Sucks when it happens to you, don't do it to other people as revenge.
Man just going for irony right away, eh?
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
Probably not in the thread with the comic about womens issues being talked over by men, like you're doing now, would be a good choice.
You are showing exactly the behaviour that the meme is criticising.
I agree with this and I'd also add that bringing up men's issues to try to silence discussion of women's issues then harms men as well because people associate discussion of men's issues with that type of shit behaviour.
I'd like to, whenever possible, move away from women's issues or men's issues towards people's issues.
It's a good thing to do that, but some issues really are heavily affected by gender
I feel like men do have it tough and when men start talking about it, they get shutdown and told to be a man. Boys dont cry afterall. So some men may feel its unfair when women speak up and are heard. So they want to make it about them. In the comic, just as the men are dismissive of woman problems, she is dismissive of mens problems. Instead of attacking an unfair weath class system, we bicker about shupid shit like men vs women. Its not race, gender or sexuality we should be discussing. Its social, weath classes.
The time to talk about men's problems is any time you like, except when a woman has just started talking about women's problems. If you redirect a conversation about women's problems, you're telling the women that you don't care about their problems. If that's the case, fine. Just don't contribute, and let people who care discuss the women's problems do that. Start another conversation about men's problems elsewhere.
Fair. Just that nobody cares about mens problems, especially women.
I think people do care about men's problems, but too often it just comes out as "the problem is toxic masculinity".
Fundamentally yes that is a major problem, and we need to find a better identity that men can subscribe to. But it's like taking a book and just showing people the last page: it seems like irrelevant nonsense without the preceding understanding.
If we set up a place where we listened to each other, and to the feedback of women, with the intent of forging a new and more functional form of masculinity, I for one would be very interested indeed.
Whataboutism at its core I think.
I guess so. Like most whataboutism it's a deflection for the sake of self- preservation. The truth is that there are specific problems with the way society treats women, and recognising that is disruptive and possibly painful.
The problem is that it's so easy to see it as a mechanism to maintain the status quo. Which it so often is. Even when men call for change, it's quite often "women should behave differently" rather than "everyone needs to reflect on their behaviour and start making changes for the better."
she is dismissive of mens problems.
Not as presented. She's being actively interrupted and trying to stay focused on her original topic.
Why does everything have to be so us-vs.-them? We all share the same planet.
This is potentially gender construct and sexism getting directly in the way of advocacy against real issues. Women start a protest advocating against a very real issue they face, by women's for women, and it is spun as a direct attack on men. Same thing happens for men's advocacy.
"...For the Master's tool will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support..." - Audre Large, in "Master's Tools Will Never Take Down the Master's House"
I don't think most would blame many women for the practices they do in public to stay safe, despite the behavior explicitly being sexist. This is because we understand that in absence of these kinds of behaviors, women do actually get prayed upon, most often by men. It's the reality of a dangerous world. however, we get angry when the statements and phrases used to justify these behaviors are said aloud.
What we fail to acknowledge is that that same kind of victimization is possible to a guy. Most guys would find the idea of deliberately using the bathroom at the same time as their friend as weird, possibly even girly. Machismo stereotypes and trying to conform to manliness actively makes men more vulnerable .
We also downplay women being violent, yet again a gender stereotype which not only lets women get physical in public, but actually also makes women easier to dismiss when they're angry and yelling. This not only lets women get away with toxic behavior, but robs them of being taken seriously at other times.
These are both issues caused by gender, which is also actively defining how advocacy happens and creates an arbitrary divide.
I liked this comment. You wrote with the nuance and balance that I strive for. Thanks for sharing
Outrage is the new thing. Many people aren’t happy or able to feel like their life is affirmed without being angry with someone or at something and it’s vital to their ideology to impose their values on others.
Non compliance with their demands is non optional.
Because humans like to make up categories which naturally cause inequality of some kind. I don't want this but it's the way it is and to pretend otherwise is ignorant and silly.
Sometimes certain subsets of the planet have problems particular to their region, culture, or cohort.
Telling a person wandering through the desert "I also get thirsty" maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
The way this comment section unironically mirrors the comic perfectly.
So many dudes here unironically talking about how men have it hard too 🤦♂️
It's kinda pathetic lol. How is it so hard for people to understand that maybe the best time to talk about problems affecting you is not when someone else is talking about problems affecting them?
I'm just going to speak my mind as a Closeted transwoman who would looks like a guy
I didn't honestly want to get involved with this thread at all in fear of creating an absolute mess
But being trans myself I see myself having empathy for both woman's and men's rights because I know and understand the issues men are facing and see the issues woman are facing
I don't like seeing the devide on either side and absolutely hate seeing the division and fighting especially when people advocate for men's rights or woman's rights
I personally advocate for both because I see everyone having rights as part of equality and equity and if you don't want any one group to have rights then that isn't equality or equity
We should be free to talk about both men's rights and woman's rights without being attacked for it
Even in these comments, people don't get it, lol.
Cmon. It's a straw man argument and the comic is intended to be polaeisiing.
Both sets of issues can coexist, and I strongly suspect that many issues have a common root.
I've noticed this an uncomfortable amount on Lemmy. Being trans, I've started bringing up my pretransition experience/traumas living as a dude even if it's not relevant whenever I talk about a women's issue that effects me because I don't get taken seriously otherwise.
Well, actually, lately I've taken up just not talking about women's issues, and really just commenting less frequently over all, because this whole place is like a mine field of people who just wanna argue. Every time before I hit send I have to think "Is somebody gonna think this is about them and get pissed with me?" And 99% of the time the answer is yes.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that lemmy is definitely a bit more wild in terms of strong opinions, some very cool people on here but also a lot of immaturity.
I'm not trans but isn't that a normal thing to think before posting? I'm fine with saying to my friends "(wo)men have hurt me in the past, and it makes me less trustful of them" but I wouldn't comment that publicly, since either I get weirdos saying "yeah I hate (wo)men too" or weirdos saying "the other sex does this but worse!" Either way they don't get what I mean, so I'm going to be very careful with qualifying what I say. It's a hot-button topic and it sucks I have to do that just to share an experience, but a lot of people are sensitive (myself included) to perceived attacks. I still get people misunderstanding it, but that's usually 1/100 instead of 1/5. It sucks that it doesn't feel like a group of friends, but there are a lot of communities on lemmy that will ban people acting like jerks (lemmy.blahaj.zone for one)
I suppose I just had higher expectations for Lemmy tbh. When I first joined on the first instance I found, the community was so nice, supportive, and in general just an amazing place to be where it felt like anybody could have a reasonable discussion about anything. It just really, really quickly devolved into what every other social media site is.
I did find using the app Connect to block lemmy.world where I assume most of the most toxic people land purely on account of its size instantly reduced toxicity in my feed by a massive amount, but it also unfortunately blocks half the content on the site and I also don't like that I have to block plenty of reasonable users as collateral to achieve it.
I was really hoping the comments here would be better.
Embarassing, tbh.
I follow a lot of women on socials, including this artist, and this shit happens on pretty much every post they make. It's crazy to me some of them have the willpower to continue creating and posting because i sure wouldn't.
I love when I'm explaining a struggle of mine that is cause of who I am and then being enrolled in the oppression Olympics.
Yeah well imagine what its like being a non-binary half black half Mexican person with disabilities. Ugh I'm so tired of privileged people like you whining about how no one will listen.
Okay, I'll just say it.
Everyone has it rough right now. Mostly because we've been thoroughly railroaded by corporations for most of our lives, but still.
Everything sucks.
WRT the first panel, I feel that way too.
That said, is this ragebait?
Yes.
Responding directly to the person in the comic
I hear you when you say that as a woman, you feel societal expectations of you can be harsh and contradictory.
There isn't a way for me to experience the same things that you experience, but I can try to empathise with your experiences by comparing them with my own, and noting times when I have felt the same way. This means that I have to compare my experiences with yours. It isn't done from a place of contest, but from trying to relate.
I get what the comic is saying but from my experience men dont ssy this because thats the whole problem with mens mental health, tho women do get ignored but not in favor of men just generally. Point is the world is shit, and yes everyones mental health is shit.
To everyone saying they've never seen this happen, but the opposite happens all the time, I'd like you to try something. Show this comic to a woman in your life and ask if they've ever felt this way. Just try it, and listen more than you talk.
Ah, yes. Nothing fires up a debate quite like making someone else's problems about you
Usually it's a case of a well thought out decent post, but then you scroll down to comments and it's "men are trash" and etc, so you end up with a bunch of fighting, which detracts from the original point.
Prolly would be better if "comments on this are disabled" was more common practice.
Or if administrative systems actually punished people heavily for saying stuff like "(any group of people) are trash"
No one called her derogatory epitaphs, totally unrealistic. Also more SA threats need to be there and a few death threats.
Guys is it misogynistic to not like misandry?
Also last time I heard anyone even talk about the MRA crowd was like 10 years ago
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