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Duh, it's so simple. The lab released infected animals to the wet market. All bases covered.
I'll take my research grant now.
(This is all said non-serious to be clear.)
I would love to see a picture of that ONE STALL that is thought to have been a hotbed. Whoever runs that stall must be quite a character, too. Golly it's fun to visit markets in new countries.
Unless... a plausible alternative to my imagination is that it looks like any other open air fresh meat stall, just with more exotic flesh... And if that's the case you can keep your photos.
But just in case. Anyone?
I mean you’ve seen people with COVID by now; did they look much different?
Huh? No, I want to see how chaotic that stall might be. I'm imagining stuff and species of all varieties.
As someone currently down with covid I thought that was state of knowledge long time ago.
Conspiracy theorists have still been spreading the lab leak theory without proof for awhile now because China is the current scary boogeyman. I get that there was lab there studying these diseases, but guessing isn't how science works, and the wet markets have been known to be a possible source of diseases for a long time now by scientists. I remember warnings about this scenario coming up awhile ago.
Lot of diseases come from China probably for similar reasons: it's crowded and close contacts with lots of animals. No one thought the 1956 flu could be a lab leak, or SARS, or H7N9, etc. People just have conspiracy theories about this one because it turned into the biggest pandemic of them all, which is just the roll of the dice of all the diseases coming out of there.
People just have conspiracy theories about this one because it turned into the biggest pandemic of them all,
No, it's because leaked gain of function research is a plausible scenario
which is just the roll of the dice of all the diseases coming out of there.
Maybe we should be more careful when manufacturing thousands of dice with sixes all over them.
Off topic, but “Genetic Ghosts” would be a sweet band name. I’d go see them.
I thought the same. What kind of music do you reckon they'd play?
They’d be the opposite of religious metal, probably be like some chipper disney sounding shit with dark realistic themes.
Wasn't this known already? Weren't there all kinds of discussions about shutting down wet markets because of this?
There's a bunch of indications / conspiracy theories that it might have been a lab leak. Basically there's not really a way to know unless the Chinese government starts being more forthcoming with information.
The main reason the conspiracy theory started is because the city where it started had a world renowned virus research facility in it.
Of course, the reason the facility is there in the first place is because Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies), so it makes sense you research the viruses close to their natural reservoir.
Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies)
This is disingenuous. RaTG13 was sourced in Tongguan in Mojiang Hani Autonomous County 1800km from Wuhan.
I don't have any information to add one way or the other, but it kinda sounds like you're saying the fact that one bat-bourne illness was found elsewhere, it's impossible that Wuhan has many or any such viruses too, which seems pretty fallacious.
No. Its pretty fallacious to imply WIV was only looking at local bats.
The wuhan area certainty has many viruses, but none were anywhere close to the sample found 1800 km away, which WIV certainty had a copy of because they sequenced it.
I don't think anyone said they were only looking at local viri. The original comment said (emphasis mine)
Of course, the reason the facility is there in the first place is because Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies), so it makes sense you research the viruses close to their natural reservoir.
So Wuhan was ideal because it's where a lot of viri originate. That doesn't imply they only looked at viri from nearby just that the location was chosen because there were so many nearby.
The prior paragraph is also important
The main reason the conspiracy theory started is because the city where it started had a world renowned virus research facility in it.
Left on its own this implies that the lab is the source. However, the next paragraph counters that view. It erroneously implies the local area is full of bats and their species hopping coronaviruses. Not even "China's Bat Woman" thinks that is likely:-
Yeah but the US media was too busy implying that China manufactured the virus in a bio lab.
Funnily enough China still suffered because it failed to lock down early enough because the government tried to ignore and detain doctors in an effort to control the narrative that everything would be fine.
The US suffered because they nuked their Pandemic emergency pla only like a few years before covid because Trump thought Spanish Fever wouldn't reincarnate to finish the job on its 100th anniversary lol.
So it was easy to vaguely point at China instead of actually solving the problem.
I don't know what US media you were consuming in 2020/21, but it was pretty much understood it came from something exotic in a wet market.
Most of us didn't know what a wet market existed or what it was until COVID. There was some conspiracy shit that the right ate up, and some editorial and opinions on the idea, but the whole bioengineered super virus escaping a lab wasn't taken that seriously
the whole bioengineered super virus escaping a lab wasn't taken that seriously
Excellent evidence why there is such a battle over misinformation.
I do recall that story. What I don't get is why the intelligence agencies had any say in the likely origin. It's not a factor of "if the virus was in a lab." It could have been. The fact is that even back then when they had the virus sequenced, they could clearly see it came from a zoonotic source, probably the same one with SARS.
The thing that irked me so bad about it is that it highlights the discrepancy between science and suspicion. Think of how vital DNA has been to crime prosecutions or exonerations. The same thing applies here.
What I don't get is why the intelligence agencies had any say in the likely origin.
If it did originate during the development of a bioweapon then you would want the intelligence agencies to be as informed as possible. Thankfully none believe that to be the case.
they could clearly see it came from a zoonotic source
Yes. 96% zoonotic. It's that latest 4% that is of interest. Particularly the fully functional cleavage site at the S1, S2 junction.
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I know this is off topic, but - why didn't anyone tell me there's a species called a raccoon dog?!
Look up some of the Japanese lore about Tanuki (the Japanese name for the raccoon dog). It involves magic, giant scrotums, and all sorts of delightful stuff.
If you like anime, Studio Ghibli (famous for a lot of classics including Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, and others) did a movie called Pom Poko, which is about tanuki. If you don't care for subtitles, the English dub is pretty good, and the voice cast stars a lot of well known (for the time) American actors.
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You might know of the tanuki, which is specifically the Japanese raccoon dog.
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Eating animals causes pandemics from zoonotic diseases. More at 11.
Being near live animals is more dangerous.
Would have far less human/animal face time if we didn't eat so much of them, don't you think?
Face time probably isn't the main factor.
If we didn't eat so many birds and swine then there would be less animals in close quarters and less chance of new bird/swine flus developing.
No doubt that's a factor. Implied in my comment (though maybe not well conveyed) is that there would be far fewer animals in captivity if we didn't eat them.
But what we're concerned about in the OP and the thread is zoonotic diseases that affect humans. Those surely wouldn't infect humans at the rate we see today if we weren't raising them for food and therefore in close proximity to them.
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including racoon dogs, civets and bamboo rats
No Bats? Oh maaaaaan
>
I think they determined that the virus that spread to humans was bats that transferred to something in the market (aka intermediate hosts). That virus would have spread there, while technically the bats could have infected humans.
Wuhan market didn't sell bats.
Also, the only bats with a (96%) similar covid strain were in caves 1000 miles away.
However, samples from those bats were stored at the wuhan institute of virology.
Very first sentence quoted above. You don't even have to go to the article:
A team of scientists say it is “beyond reasonable doubt” the Covid pandemic started with infected animals sold at a market, rather than a laboratory leak.
No amount of evidence or scientific consensus can convince a conspiracy theorist...
And yes, I know:
Despite even highlighting one market stall as a hotspot of both animals and coronavirus, the study cannot provide definitive proof.
Therefore lab leak, right?
The samples were collected by Chinese officials in the early stages of Covid and are one of the most scientifically valuable sources of information on the origins of the pandemic.
This Part makes me question things a bit. China is not really known for being honest about things happening in China.
Questioning things is fine. On the other hand, it's pretty hard to fake the ability to trace DNA to a specific market stall.
On top of that, the person I replied to is not questioning. They've already decided it's definitely a lab leak. See all of their other comments.
Ahhh okay, nvm then
The study itself is quite balanced and honest about data collection. It doesn't rule out a lab origin like the article claims.
our study does not rule out human-to-animal transmission, as the sampling was carried out after the human infection within the market. Thus, the possibility of potential introduction of the virus to the market through infected humans, or cold-chain products, cannot yet be ruled out.
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this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
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