that's what happens when you tell voters to fuck off when they suggest ways in which you can win their vote. hope it was worth it!
We're in such a wonderful position: Kamala does nothing about Israel like she's paid to do and Palestinians die.
Trump wins and not only does nothing about Palestine, but encourages Bibi to go harder, more Palestinians die annnnd we get to enjoy the beginning of a fascist dictatorship!
Notice how Stein isn't even mentioned in the above? You can claim it's about putting pressure on Kamala all you like, but this is the literal election. When she loses because of this "pressure" (that isn't pressure, it's literally not voting for her at all) what's the outcome? It sure as hell has nothing to do with Stein being anywhere.
We've been having this argument about the green party for fucking decades and what progress/policies have they "forced" the Democrats to adopt?
I think aside from the obvious genocide, what really fucking pisses me off about Democrats and this topic is that "we" can sooooo easily say "handguns for self defense ok! Shotguns for self defense ok! Rifles for self defense ok (depends on magazine size and rate of fire) bombs? No! Tanks? God no!" But when it comes to Isreal they suddenly completely lose the capacity for nuance... Bombs = self defense? Are you fucking joking?
So I see you're concerned about the mathematical flaws of First past the post voting and the spoiler effect that comes along with it.
Did you know that alternative electoral systems exist? Ones where there isn't a spoiler effect even. I feel like most democrats, like yourself, understand these faults quite well. It is after all, the entire subject of your comment.
So why are you mad about people who want to vote outside the two party system? Shouldn't your anger be better directed at the two legacy poltical parties that protect this flawed voting system?
We all understand that republicans like First Past The Post voting. They are moving to protect FPTP voting in states they control. However, democrats say they support democracy. So can you tell me why they continue to use FPTP voting in the majority of states they control?
It's not like this is a new issue. Its not like the democratic party just found out about the spoiler effect that comes with First Past The Post voting. Democrats have been quick to point out the flaws of our voting system longer then I've been alive.
Again, if the democrats are so informed of the flaws of the voting system, why does it persist in the vast majority of blue states? Who is preventing this reform? It's not the republicans... they aren't in power in these states. In a two party system, that would leave only one political party responsible for this spoiler effect.
The democrats.
They have sat on their hands for countless decades, understanding the problem yet doing nothing to resolve the issue.
So you see, you should be mad at the democratic party for putting their party over the needs of the people. Not the people who want to vote a certain way.
It's unreasonable to blame those unrepresented in government for what is. This is what we voted for... again... and again... and again. Over and over. This is the result.
So why does this only show Republican states as actually banning it? Yeah I'm with you on Democrats slow walking this issue, but Republicans are actively banning it. Until that changes we're stuck with only those two options. Corpo Dems or corpo-fascist Republicans...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
You can be mad at both. Those in power should be changing the system to make it better and more fair, but they are not. That deserves anger. But while we are stuck with the existing system, and while the results of the system have serious consequences, then refusing to participate (and voting 3rd party in such a system is refusing to participate) means allowing the serious consequences to occur, and therefore also deserves anger.
It's almost exactly the classic trolley problem. Voting democrat means pulling the lever: you cause some harm, but far less harm than if the trolley had not been diverted. Voting 3rd party is the equivalent to not pulling the lever, allowing much greater harm while feeling morally "clean" for not having caused it yourself.
Don’t worry. With a divided vote trump will take care of everything.
Stien never had any chance but the one she’s intended for. Divide the vote and help the people funding her- republicans.
Edit. I’ll add this here. Just saw this on another post
Liberals downvoting this would rather plug their ears and cover their eyes instead of confronting their issues and calling on Kamala to sanction Israel.
every thread from now until December
Don't worry everyone, just one more damage control vote and things will all be fixed. The democrats pinky swears. /$
Kamala isn’t president yet. You can call on her to sanction Israel as president, without also pushing another candidate.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump, and if Trump wins then Palestine is really truly f’d anyway.
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid. Those are extreme positions that have nothing to do with Israel-Palestine, and many of those interested in voting for her are likely not even aware of those stances.
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid.
She's the VICE president! We can already judge her actions and make pretty accurate judgements on how she will act as president based on what she is currently doing. Which is aiding genocide.
Kamala isn’t president yet. You can call on her to sanction Israel as president, without also pushing another candidate.
She has promised to always keep sending Israel bombs. She can promise to sanction Israel if she wants to regain votes she is shedding by promising to continue genocide.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump, and if Trump wins then Palestine is really truly f’d anyway.
Jill Stein's platform is a lot better than the Democrats, votes for her pull the DNC to the left. If Trump wins, he will indeed continue the genocide started under the Democrats, but so would Kamala.
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid. Those are extreme positions that have nothing to do with Israel-Palestine, and many of those interested in voting for her are likely not even aware of those stances.
Then tell people what she stands for. For what it's worth, disbanding NATO is the single greatest thing any American President could do for the Global South, taking a firm stand against Imperialism.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump
Can you explain why?
Stein has been primarily campaigning on "Drop Kamala", bleeding democratic support away from Harris.
Awesome.
Let’s give fascism a chance.
Yay
Are you vote-shaming Muslim-Americans refusing to vote for someone committing genocide on Palestinians?
Explicitly YES
A vote fire Stein is a vote for Trump. A vote for stein is a vote for fascism.
Yes. I explicitly shame this behavior.
Shame.
Dig?
The Muslim-Americans that refuse to vote for a genocidal regime specifically targetting Muslims is somehow fascist, and supporting Trump?
........ Please research the electoral laws of the country you live and vote in!
I'm pretty familiar. What are you trying to say?
Unfortunately, yes.
Our system blows. But as it stands, yes, that is correct.
The two party system should change, but until it does, you either vote for the lesser of two evils or you step back enable the greater of two evils.
If you vote for stein you’re worse than most magas because deep down, you know better.
Gotcha, so you're the liberal that would rather close their eyes and cover their ears than actually try to regain those votes by pushing Kamala to sanction Israel.
I’m no fucken liberal
We should have cut Israel loose 30 years ago
Kamala is as center right as she’s ever been, she’s a fucken cop ffs
You think I wouldn’t rather be voting for somebody even a little left of center, let alone an actual leftist?
That’s not the world as it stands, no matter how much you whinge about making Kamala be mean to isreal
I could piss away my vote because Kamala sucks but what does that get anyone? You want change, dig in. We need to win local first
You think it’s bad for Muslims now? What do you think it looks like if the fucken yahoos running around saying Haitians eat cats win again because a bunch of morons protest voted for stein.
And seriously, Jill fucken stein of all people
You're blaming people for being strongly anti-genocide. That's basically absurd at face value. If you wanna argue against being a single issue voter, that's a conversation to have. However, "I oppose genocide." is kinda the single best single issue to rely on, if someone is inclined to be one.
All the while, Harris knows the risks. Don't blame voters for Harris's conscious choice. If you alienate your base, you deserve to lose your base. Deal with it... I think she still has the votes, but that is the risk for every candidate, and it always will be.
No, we're pointing out that electing Trump is a really weird way to be anti-genocide.
It's ironic to see people in this thread talking about "Democrats closing their eyes and ears"...
In 1995 the Arab-Israeli electorate sat out the election in protest because of a bombing which allowed Netanyahu to win by half a percent. And now he is still in power today causing all of these atrocities.
Trump has had private meetings with Netanyahu telling him to keep it up because it makes Democrats look bad.
You're playing into Netanyahu and Trump's hand. Just like all the MAGAt's crying about the border when it was trump who stopped the border bill.
I worry that, if Harris loses because Muslim voters don't vote for her, liberals will side with Trump when he does another Muslim ban.
Or something worse this time.
2016 again. Idiots never learn.
Yep, the Democratic party never learns that it can't just shame voters into compliance while offering them nothing.
And… turning the nation into a fascist hellscape will teach those democrats a lesson!
They're the ones doing that, they're in charge right now and conducting a genocide in Gaza while fear mongering about immigrants.
Fuck her.
Yeah, fuck Harris (And Trump).