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submitted 1 week ago by atro_city@fedia.io to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

No more men's and women's league, no more "gender eligibility" requirements, a common dresscode, same standards and rules for all.

Edit: since it looks like people missing the word let: the suggestion isn't to force desegregation. It's to allow it or even make it the default. Someone else made a good suggestion: segregate by attributes specific to the sport. In boxing it's weight class, in basketball it could be height, in biking it could even be doped and non doped. Sex and gender need not be the very first thing to segregate by.

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[-] OhmsLawn@lemmy.world 88 points 1 week ago

Not if you value women participating in sports.

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 12 points 1 week ago

Why? Weight classes, leauges, and divisions won't help?

[-] dgmib@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

The fastest a woman has ever run the 100m dash is 10.49 seconds.

The Olympic qualifying time, that all runners needed to beat to even complete in men’s 100m dash this year was 10.00 seconds.

If we didn’t have a women’s division, there couldn’t be women in sports.

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[-] OhmsLawn@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago

This has been explained elsewhere.

[-] paf0@lemmy.world 53 points 1 week ago

No, men and women are not physically equal.

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 16 points 1 week ago

Why does that matter? Men also have divisions and leagues. Team in the top leagues will destroy the leagues at the bottom.

[-] hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world 33 points 1 week ago

why does it matter?

Should we stop splitting sports by gender?

It's inherently boring to watch sports competitions between unequally capable people, and there is a natural difference in that that can be clearly attributed to gender.

I admire your thought of equality but we need to talk about the differences in physique in genders as well if we wanna discuss this.

Don't dismiss this claim, scientifically debunk it or share why not and how you come to this conclusion.

[-] roofuskit@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

No, it's not attributed to gender. It is attributed to sex. Sorry to be pedantic but we live in a world where that distinction is very important for education purposes.

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 6 points 1 week ago

Of course people are differently capable, that why we have divisions, leagues, weight classes, and so on, even in the same sex. Why would that change when they all compete together?

[-] Lauchs@lemmy.world 24 points 1 week ago

"Hey! Do you want to watch division 7 soccer? They have a woman on the team!"

Hardly inspirational to girls everywhere. Whereas whenever I've caught the Canadian women's soccer team, it's usually at a pretty full arena with lots of girls teams there stoked to watch. I would never take that away from them.

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[-] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 7 points 1 week ago

Because putting them together in most physical sports would push women out of the highest echelons of that sport. Just look up what female MMA fighters and female tennis players have to say. They literally can't keep up with men. Serena Williams and her sister boasted that they'd beat any man outside the top 200, Braasch (then #203) took the challenge and on the day of the challenge played a round of golf drank 2 low ABV beers before easily beating both sisters

Probably the most detrimental thing you can do for women in sports is to get rid of the women's league. Most "men's" categories are already open for women, so you should ask women why they don't want to partake. The answer is what female athletes already say, they'd get absolutely dumpstered before they even get close to the top. Of course the less physically demanding the closer men and women will be, but for most sports the physical differences make women's leagues necessary.

[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 49 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Most professional sports in the United States don't have any policies against women being in the sport. NBA, Football, Baseball, Hockey, etc.

None of them exclude women from playing in the professional leagues. Baseball did briefly in the middle of the 1900s, but that policy was reversed

It's just that, for these sports, the best women in the game have not yet been better than the worst men in the game. A woman and a man of equal height and weight are still not generally physically equal. Muscle composition and growth, bone structure, etc. mean that on average, women are less strong and less explosive than men, and most popular sports emphasize those attributes.

WNBA teams would often scrimmage against male pick-up basketball players for practice, and they would also often lose. These were just random guys in the area, many of whom didn't even play often.

The US Women's National Team played against FC Dallas's under-15 boys squad and lost 5-2. That USWNT went on to win the Olympics and the women's World Cup. The Australian women's team lost to U15 boys 3-0 and again to another U15 boys team 7-0; Arsenal's woman's team lost 5-0 to a U15 boys club; the professional squad Athletic Feminino in Spain lost to a U16 boys squad 6-0; and there are many, many more examples.

There is some research on evolutionary theory specifically about the vast differences in upper-body strength: "But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman. Such a distinction between genders, Carrier says, develops with time and with purpose."

There are very few sports where this would be feasible, and most if not all those sports are not well-watched and make very little money: shooting, archery, ultra-marathons come first to mind.

[-] abysmalpoptart@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

To be fair, about that women's world cup team, if i recall correctly it was a PR move to play an exhibition match with those kids and they were not trying very hard to win. I don't think they would truly lose to U-15 if it was, for example, a tournament.

Your overall point has merit but i think that specific example gets overused a bit.

[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It was hardly a "PR move," they didn't publicize it, and it didn't really get traction until Carli Lloyd "admitted" it on Twitter. I'm sure they were taking it a little easy though. That being said, the Australian women's team lost to U15 boys 3-0 and again to another U15 boys team 7-0; Arsenal's woman's team lost 5-0 to a U15 boys club; the professional squad Athletic Feminino in Spain lost to a U16 boys squad 6-0; and there are many, many more examples.

I actually watch more women's soccer than men's, so I'm not denigrating the game or quality of play, but I think you'd agree the above represents a pretty clear trend.

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[-] flamingo_pinyata@sopuli.xyz 35 points 1 week ago

Same dress code, standards and rules absolutely - regardless if competition is split or not.
Same competition definitely for some sports - chess and shooting come to mind.

More physical sports - I'm undecided there. I'd support everyone competing together if for example weight categories are introduced. You don't want people of widely different physical build competing together, it's not fun either to watch or play.

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 14 points 1 week ago

That's already how it works. 80kg boxers don't compete against 100kg boxers, division 1 teams don't compete against division 5 teams.

It just means that some teams will be mixed. We might even be surprised at how many teams will be mixed.

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 17 points 1 week ago

I don't want to see a 80kg male boxing against a 80kg female. I already know how that is going to end.

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[-] p3n@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The thing people do no appreciate about professional and Olympic level sports is just how far the male athletes are beyond the athletic ability of the average man.

There seems to be a notion that just because someone is a male they get to compete at the highest level of sports. This is simply not the case. The vast majority of male athletes will never even come close to reaching a professional level. Even an above average male college athlete has a snowball's chance in hell of making it in a league like the NFL.

When we are talking about women competing with these men, we aren't talking about competing against men with average or even above average ability (professional female athletes would mop the floor with men in the 60% percentile) we are talking about competing against the top .000001% of male athletes.

Women not only have a biological disadvantage, they have a population size disadvantage. Far more boys and men compete in sports and games. I don't care what game or sport you are competiting in, if you have population A containing 100 randomly selected competitors and population B containing 1000 competitors, you don't have to be a statistician to figure out that your #1 competitor and probably your entire top 10 are going to come from population B.

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[-] Psiczar@aussie.zone 23 points 1 week ago

No, because the women would be at an unfair physical disadvantage in most sports.

I watched the speed rock climbing (sorry, don’t know the official name) during the Olympics. The fastest woman was amazing, she flew up the wall in about 6.75 seconds, and beat her nearest competitor by over a second to win the gold. The fastest man was nearly 2 seconds faster again with his competitors not far behind. If the women competed with the men, the female gold medal winner wouldn’t even be on the podium.

[-] stoly@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

You say that but women’s tennis didn’t exist until a woman beat all the men and won a tournament.

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[-] NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 1 week ago

Problem is that some sports are really unfair towards one of the sexes (and it's not always men who have the advantage). I definitely think it should be mixed for sports where there's no advantage.

Relevant recent YT short about archery: https://youtube.com/shorts/oCi_IawIFQA

[-] atro_city@fedia.io 6 points 1 week ago

I don't see that as a problem. For example boxing or weightlifting would probably have the top 10-100 being all men, but have more variety (trans, men, and women) below that. They could all compete together though.

You could still be the top man/woman/trans, but there would be a clear total ranking. For example one would see that the top female tennis player would rank 100th in the total ranking. It wouldn't take away from her achievements and allow her to play against men at the same level.

[-] Lauchs@lemmy.world 20 points 1 week ago

But it does kind of diminish the women's sports.

Consider say, the 100 meter sprint. The winning women's times at the Olympics were all so far behind the men that literally none of the winning times would have even qualified to be at the Olympics! (Mens min qualifying time is under 10 seconds, Alfred won gold at 10.72 seconds, Jefferson took bronze at 10.92.) At the other end of the scale, for the 10,000 meter race, the last placing male ran it in just over 29 minutes which was 5 seconds faster than the Olympic women's record for the same distance and was a full minute and a half faster than the gold winning woman.

Similarly for a lot of team sports you'd be relegating teams with women on them to a much lower league because at the top of the table, raw physical strength plays a role.

Splitting up by sex means we can watch and appreciate the best women play their sport at the highest level and celebrate them. Or almost every Olympic sport would just be guy guy guy.

[-] ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee 18 points 1 week ago

In Finland we have lower physical requirements for women to get into the police academy. I think it's safe to say that with equal requirements we wouldn't have a single female police officer in the entire country.

I'd expect a similar thing to happen in sports. When it comes to physical strenght men have a massive advantage over women. It would be the women who this screws over.

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[-] JASN_DE@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago
[-] atro_city@fedia.io 8 points 1 week ago
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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 13 points 1 week ago

That would just be men's sports, which in fairness is all most people seem to care about anyway...

[-] Flipper@feddit.org 8 points 1 week ago

Not every sport. Dressage is already a sport where there is just one category. Synchronous swimming is also one, but only women competed this year.

[-] blackstrat@lemmy.fwgx.uk 13 points 1 week ago

The only sport that is a predominantly physical exercise (so excluding things like snooker, darts, archery etc) where women could compete competitively against men at an equivilent level in their sport (league 1 men vs league 1 women) would be ultra marathons. Most other sports is so mis-matched you'd end up with some random amateur bloke against an elite woman.

Basically if you've gone through male puberty you are vastly different physically from someone who hasn't.

[-] Godnroc@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

I'm all for removing gender as the first dividing line, but there needs to be some divisions in place.

As an example, in martial sports they are often separated by weight class to balance the fact that a larger, heavier person would have an advantage over a smaller, lighter person.

Without that, basketball would be dominated by the tallest people only, but that means there is no reason for anyone who isn't tall to even play the game. Break it into height classes and suddenly you meet have a league of skilled, average height players that could be very compelling to watch.

[-] Aurenkin@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 week ago

Height classes for basketball actually sounds really cool. It'd be interesting to see the different strategies that come into play when people physically can't reach the ring for example. Or at least I assume it would, I know nothing about basketball but it sounds like it'd be pretty interesting.

[-] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 week ago

As the shortest person in most Basketball games during my childhood, I would have loved this so much! I enjoyed the game very much, but I always had to work twice as hard as my taller friends.

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[-] cheddar@programming.dev 8 points 1 week ago

Why? It's not like men and women are equal biologically.

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[-] Vanth@reddthat.com 8 points 1 week ago
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[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I think that by default sports should have a single league for everyone, unless data shows that some physical attribute has an undue impact on performance. Then leagues should be split by that attribute.

That attribute should not be immediately assumed to be sex. Often I feel like sex is being used as a proxy for something else, partially correlated; such as weight or height.

a common dresscode, same standards and rules for all

Yes.

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[-] snooggums@midwest.social 7 points 1 week ago

A lot of the reason for separate sports and other competitions is because of exclusion due to sexism, not physical differences. Chess for example was riddled with men who refused to play women, or share knowledge, or anything that would help the playing field be anywhere close to equal.

While it would be technically possible to force everyone together, a lot of the separation is so that training and knowledge transfer can occur, women can feel welcome to participate in the first place, etc.

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[-] circledsquare@fedia.io 7 points 1 week ago

I think all the money should be taken out of all sport and spent on things that benefit everybody, not just athletes and sports fans. People can play sport as a hobby, like children do. That would remove the gender conundrum.

[-] ramsgrl909@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

This post was clearly not made by a woman

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[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

I would love to see more co-ed team sports at the jr high and high school level. Could be interesting if the teams were required to have a certain percentage of male and female on the court/field, with transgender counting as either. People take school sports way too seriously.

[-] dariusj18@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

Firstly, most sports have an open league and a women's league. Women can play in the "men's" leagues if they are able. Secondly there is an olympic.sport where men and women compete against each other, dressage.

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this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
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