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submitted 3 months ago by silence7@slrpnk.net to c/politics@lemmy.world

There really doesn't seem to be any limit to the amount of bribery going on.

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[-] sylver_dragon@lemmy.world 88 points 3 months ago

Democrats really need to get control of the House in this election and get Articles of Impeachment going on Thomas.

[-] Spitzspot@lemmings.world 74 points 3 months ago
[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 42 points 3 months ago

Or just reject judicial review. The constitution doesn't give the supreme court the power to invalidate laws, only to be the court of last appeal for court cases.

They just invented that power for themselves. Next time they assert that the executive branch via the EPA lacks authority to regulate the environment, just assert that you don't accept the fabricated power they gave themselves and continue to regulate things as Congress delegated to them.

[-] SkybreakerEngineer@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

Except then there's nothing to stop unconstitutional laws

[-] exanime@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

There isn't anything to stop unconstitutional laws now. What's the difference?

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

Sure there is. Someone who has been damaged by the law takes it to court, and the court decides in their favor, and the penalty for violating the law doesn't apply to them. They don't veto the law, they just decide the cases brought to them.
That's different from the judiciary having a veto power they granted themselves. They have the power to decide cases, not the power to strike down a law.

Hell, the constitution even makes it explicit that Congress can pass a law restricting what cases can be appealed to the supreme court in the first place.
If the constitution intended for them to decide the validity of laws, why would it include a clause allowing Congress to pass a law the supreme court can't review?

If they were supposed to have that power, why wasn't it out in the constitution? Why was this check left entirely implied while the others were spelled out?
Why did a variety of the framers of the constitution say that it was a terrible idea?

You seem ... to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. They have, with others, the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. ... Their power [is] the more dangerous as they are in office for life, and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves.


Thomas Jefferson

[I]n their decisions they will not confine themselves to any fixed or established rules, but will determine, according to what appears to them, the reason and spirit of the constitution. The opinions of the supreme court, whatever they may be, will have the force of law; because there is no power provided in the constitution, that can correct their errors, or controul their adjudications. From this court there is no appeal.


a less notable constitutional delegate, but weirdly portentious, on why judicial review should not be included.

[-] APassenger@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

Then does it have the ability to decide Roe?

I understand my question starts at the wrong point. I'm asking how far you'd extend your point.

Because I find it interesting and perhaps feasible.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

Unfortunately not in the way that they did. They would not have been able to have invalidated all laws blocking abortion, but they would be able to set precedent which held that cases involving abortion should be decided in favor of the abortion seeker.

So they could have decided Roe, but it would have been just the case, not the constitutional question.

This is not strictly what everyone means when they talk about ending judicial review.
Some interpret it as "the courts can only interpret the law as written, not it's constitutionality".
I disagree with that and think that the court naturally needs to be able to consider multiple laws that apply to a case, and the Constitution is one of those laws.
It's the "executive branch, you can't do that" part, where they prevent the law from being enforced. The law remains the law, and the only thing the courts can do is rule on the case.

I try to be consistent with my interpretation and extension of how things would play out, even when it's an outcome I'm not as fond of. Worst case scenario I need to change my opinion because it leads to an outcome I find intolerable.

In general I prefer a policy

[-] APassenger@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

I've been reflecting on your answer and I keep returning to one point...

In your example the rule in favor of the abortion seeker. As a principled and partial matter, how do these differ from today?

Is your argument that states can and maybe should keep laws around after they've been ruled demonstrably against the Constitution? If so, wouldn't justice only be granted with those with the means to appeal to SCOTUS?

Despite the possibility of tone sounding argumentative, it's not. I think I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out. Thread is old enough I suspect it's just the two of us here anyhow.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago

Totally happy to have a conversation, particularly since I also have conflicted feelings on the question. :)

So the way review works now, the Court can find a law unconstitutional, which sets a "do not enforce" precedent. The can also hear a case involving executive action, and find an order or act unconstitutional and force the executive to stop.

Neither is explicitly in the constitution, and there's a lot of documentation by the founders about if it should or shouldn't be.

Totally abolishing judicial review would mean the courts would only be able to rule on the law as written and decide court cases without determining the constitutionality of said laws.
I don't think that makes much sense, since deciding questions of law requires interpreting applicable laws, and the Constitution is one of them.
It would also leave Congress to decide if their own actions were constitutional, which isn't great, but also isn't too different from the supreme court, with the perk of public accountability via elections.

I'm more in favor of a reduced judicial review, where the courts wouldn't have the power to restrain the executive or legislative branches, but would have the power to decide cases, set precedent, and determine constitutionality of laws, but not "categories" of law.

In the case of Roe, it would have played out that the Texas law would be decided against Texas, but that wouldn't generalize to invalidating Mississippis similar law. Precedent carries weight, but not the same weight as striking down or invalidating a law.

It cases like "Ohio vs EPA" (Ohio sued the EPA because the EPA said that air pollution that leaves your state is subject to interstate regulation, and set a plan for reducing those emissions. The court ruled that reducing emissions would cause irreparable harm to the states being forced to curtail emissions) the Court would be able to decide the case, but they would not be able to order the executive branch to restrict or change how they execute the clean air act as directed by Congress.

This would have the effect of increasing the number of court cases. Also of making it more difficult to stop an executive whose interpretation of a law with delegated congressional authority is wonky.
It would lessen the courts authority to do things like establish corporate personhood, establish money as speech, or decide the president is (largely) immune from prosecution.

It's a mixed bag. Historically the courts have done much to advance individual liberties and a general progressive sense of justice. But they have also, in deeper history and more recently, done much to hinder it.
The opinion of (some of) the framers of the constitution that entrusting effectively unaccountable power in the trust that a small group of people will remain unbiased, nonpartisan, and objective for the duration of a lifetime appointment is choosing a kind of oligarchy is compelling.
We spend a lot of time as a country hoping that we have a "good" court, and worrying about what they might change about our society in their next ruling, with very little prospect of being able to influence or overrule that decision.
In a democratic nation, people should not have to say "oh, our legal standards for abortion access have suddenly changed, we better find a way to work around the ruling until a new court can flip it" rather than trying to clarify or pass a law, remove the people who misrepresented our wishes in the next election, or take the ruling as a new precedent and not a definitional shift in our legal structure.

There are good arguments for a largely unassailable court that's not beholden to public opinion.
The only other way to make them not an effective oligarchy is to reduce their power.
Anytime power rests with one or a few, you'll have good and bad decisions, depending on the quality of the ruler. Reducing their power reduces both, but it shifts it to more democratic systems, which at least we have feedback on.

At some point while writing this I got an increasingly bad headache and went rambly. Sorry about the wall of text, but hopefully it's an interesting read at least. 😉(Pretend it's not a wink but smile with a migraine wince)

[-] SaltySalamander@fedia.io 1 points 3 months ago

Which laws has this supreme court invalidated?

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 months ago

https://constitution.congress.gov/resources/unconstitutional-laws/

The specifics of which laws have been overturned and when are largely immaterial to of it's something they're even allowed to do in the constitution.

[-] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 18 points 3 months ago

Just like Trump they will remain entirely unaffected by any legal process, beyond some slight inconvenience. I've lost faith that any of them will see anything resembling consequences.

[-] jaybone@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Can scotus judges be impeached and removed from office? Is committing perjury sufficient cause for impeachment and removal? Because it seems like they do a lot of the perjury. Like stating under oath that Roe is settled case law for example.

[-] modeler@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

Someone has to decide whether it is or is not perjury. In this case it's the Senate and they need 2/3rd majority. So that basically means Supreme court judges (and presidents) are impossible to get rid of, even for perjury.

[-] snekerpimp@lemmy.world 70 points 3 months ago

“Oh, THAT flight? I’m sorry, I get bribed with so many things, I forgot that flight”

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 43 points 3 months ago

I had no idea the judicial branch of the us government was so corrupt. It’s incredibly disheartening and angering.

[-] qwen 11 points 3 months ago

The corruption is crazy, but like 70% of the corruption is just Clarence Thomas. Like, he manages to be the embodiment of corruption in justice system.

[-] DandomRude@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Thomas may have become something of a public figurehead for corruption, but he is just the tip of the iceberg.

[-] norimee@lemmy.world 39 points 3 months ago

You know its bad, when the corruption isn't surprising anymore and you're just like "Yeah, go figure."

[-] TheLowestStone@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

My response to most of these headlines is, "Obviously."

[-] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 31 points 3 months ago

This is what these weird ass Republicans have planned for our future.

[-] RattlerSix@lemmy.world 25 points 3 months ago

I can barely afford a three day weekend and this corrupt fuck gets jet-setted all over the globe by plantifs in his courtroom

[-] xenomor@lemmy.world 25 points 3 months ago

Motherfucker is rotten to his surly, vindictive, ignorant core.

[-] IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 20 points 3 months ago

The court has no legitimacy while this corrupt old fuck sits on it.

[-] Moah 4 points 3 months ago

The court hasn't had legitimacy since that old turtle blocked Obama's appointee and Obama didn't executive order said appointment.

[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

I'm beginning to think he really was a creepy fucker before he was appointed.

[-] kikutwo@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago

Either a criminal or senile.

[-] negativenull@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago
[-] SoleInvictus 3 points 3 months ago

Definitivamente los dos, quizás más.

[-] PoopDelivery@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

This dude was sticking his dick in his intern's coke cans or some weird shit 20 years before JD Vances was pushin' the cushions alone.

[-] skozzii@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 months ago

And yet Republicans are too hungry for power they would sacrifice law and order and democracy to maintain power instead of hold him accountable.

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Also, Ginni likes to dress up as a pirate on the weekends and murder the homeless for fun. Too bad even that will have no effect on the gridlocked corrupt system that ensure their eternal power over us poors.

[-] Suavevillain@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Professional Sugarbaby. Get this bozo off the court.

[-] MediaBiasFactChecker@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

New York Times - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)Information for New York Times:

MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this source

Search topics on Ground.Newshttps://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/05/us/politics/clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-private-jet.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Ak4.i_ro.GYqTCY16me1G&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
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[-] teamevil@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Make it an official act to remove his corrupt ass

[-] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 2 points 3 months ago

trickle truth is all deliberate speed

this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2024
805 points (100.0% liked)

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