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[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 138 points 3 months ago

I just want to say, for all the discussion of 'could they have...' it's important to remember that Germany was never going to conquer Russia, it was a stupid (racist) idea to get Hitlers 'lebensraum' and take out Stalin's 'Jewish Bolshevist' nation (heavy on the eye-roll there). Keep in mind that Germany didn't even get Moscow, which Napoleon had actually managed to (mostly) do, and Napoleon still lost for the same reason that Germany would have regardless -- they did not have the logistical ability to support an army in an area the size of Russia. Partisan/army elements would absolutely pick apart a logistical train that long, which Germany couldn't have done any way. We have to remember Germany wasn't an actual mechanized army, it was entirely dependent on horses, and to try to use horses to haul ammunition/food/clothes/medical supplies/artillery shells/etc ~1500 kilometres from Germany to Moscow alone would be insane, especially with the millions of men and women the Soviet union had constantly attacking you.

The entire invasion was never going to work, and people give the idea it could have worked way too much credit. And this is all assuming no other nation would step in either; it's entirely on the 'nobody is in an alliance anymore' sort of fantasy world. This failed for the exact same reason that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has -- they planned for a short, easy war, because their entire ideology requires that they underestimate their foes at every available opportunity.

[-] Lemminary@lemmy.world 46 points 3 months ago

I like how passionate you are about this one detail about history. And, honestly? I would read your book about it. Lol

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

Thanks, I appreciate that :)

[-] Justas@sh.itjust.works 22 points 3 months ago

Some Germans wanted to ally themselves with Poland and fight against Soviet Union together. Without Germany attacking Poland, France and United Kingdom would have not entered the war and history might have gone very differently.

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

It is true, if they hadn't done Nazi things and had actual allies they could have done better, for sure.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

We get into how you define victory over USSR. He thought the state would collapse, the infamous "kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will fall down". Then they would doubtlessly ethnic cleanse.

There was a difference between Napoleon's and Hitler's strategy. Napoleon went straight for Moscow like an arrow, ignoring everything else. He got it, but then what? Hitler saw that and knew that didn't work, so he launched a broad invasion on the North, Central, and South all at once. The goal was a total collapse, so that there wasn't much left to do military activity (not on any significant scale like with tanks and planes). Course there were other problems with that.

[-] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

Another thing to note is people keep saying that if ideology didn't gimp the war effort, the Nazis would've won. However, the ideology was the whole reason the war even happened in the first place.

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

Exactly. It's Fascism 101 - you invade anyone smaller than you to get slaves/money/etc, you pick scapegoats to blame for any issues you have, and you steal everything not nailed down, and then you move on to the next place. Eventually you pick a fight you can't win, and then you lose.

Part of them losing that fight was two of my grandparents, and I'm kinda pissed we're dealing with them again. So I want to reinforce: If a country goes fascist, this shit is coming. Nazi Germany was never going to win anything with an ideology that flawed.

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[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 98 points 3 months ago

Not only that, but they were also defeated by the cooperation of different nations that would let anyone join if they wanted.

So the Nazis were literally defeated by diversity and inclusivity.

[-] ameancow@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I have been involved in "big business" at several times in my life, someone actually gave me authority to build teams and create projects. I discovered that there are different schools of thought about what makes the "perfect team" to work on a project, and most managers go through the hiring process in mind of getting candidates that all are the same, all have the same personality, skillset and background, under the belief that homogeny makes for a more harmonious, predictable team.

Not me fam. I painted goddamn abstract art with a pallet of people. I got the most diverse teams I could, I got outspoken, angry black mothers alongside timid, pasty nerds alongside combat vets alongside immigrant chefs.

It took constant "babysitting" to make sure everyone was getting along and understanding each other, but we kicked ass. It's an amazing feeling putting together a team that can handle changes and can provide input on things you never thought of and who actually care about the results. Not only did we succeed at every challenge, I made lifelong friends and learned new things every day.

Diversity and inclusion is literally being used like a slur lately and it burns me. Diversity of backgrounds and perspectives is one of the most valuable strategic assets you can have around you. The people who surround themselves with people who already agree with them and have nothing new to add may pass challenges, but if you want to defeat challenges, you need a spectrum of perspectives.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 59 points 3 months ago

Fights one war

It was kind of a big one, though.

[-] whome@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 3 months ago

And pretty successful hat they stopped at a certain point

[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 26 points 3 months ago

There would be no way to stop. The German economy was really messed up by the Nazis. They essentially had no exports because they were producing mainly materiel for the war and were under an embargo anyway.

That means they had no way to get money besides literally taking it from conquered countries. The problem is, you can only loot once. This created a vicious cycle where they became more isolated and needed to conquer even more.

Honestly, before nukes existed, the Nazis could have been defeated by an embargo. But it would have cost more lives. Invading Germany saved lives and the nukes saved even more lives in Japan.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

The problem is, you can only loot once. This created a vicious cycle where they became more isolated and needed to conquer even more.

Fucks sake Adolf, I learned this from a few hours of a total war game. You think you'd have figured it out at some point.

[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 3 months ago

If only Adolf Hitler had played Total War, maybe he wouldn't have been such a lunatic smh

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[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 5 points 3 months ago

If anyone's interested in further reading the MEFO Bills are definitely interesting from an economic perspective.

I'm sure it wasn't the first army built on credit, but it was definitely the biggest.

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[-] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 58 points 3 months ago

Not to glorify nazis, but arguable they fought a whole bunch of wars against most european countries and won all of them until they came up against some big ones.

[-] Th4tGuyII@fedia.io 83 points 3 months ago

Arguably their biggest mistake was trying to fight both world superpowers at once, in the USSR and Great Britain backed by the US. I can't imagine how they thought that would go well, but thank fuck they did, cause I wouldn't want to see the world they envisioned.

[-] Pechente@feddit.org 62 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

If you’re brainwashed by your own propaganda, attacking both superpowers probably feels like a good idea

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[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

Operation Bruhbarossa

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 months ago

In their defense, they kicked the everliving shit out of one world power (France) already

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Not how wars work alliance against alliance, that's the point of an alliance.

[-] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 42 points 3 months ago

If you had the UK, USA, France, and Russia/USSR against you, you were fucked. Same applied to world war 1.

It would be the same today in a parallel universe where Russia were allies of the west.

[-] zakobjoa@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

If you had the ~~UK~~ USA ~~France, and Russia/USSR~~ against you, you were fucked. Same applied to world war 1.

These people were building like an entire fucking ship per day. They averaged almost one whole aircraft carrier per month. Germany was running their cars on wood gas. Absolutely no chance. Would have been more costly in terms of casualties without the USSR, but 1940s USA was unbeatable, especially with their untouchable production base

[-] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 26 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The USSR lost more, spent more, and was more affected and effective than the USA in WWII.

Deleting the USSR from your history makes that history wrong and dumb.

Straight facts.

[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago

How can they "spend more" than the US? They were literally given materiel and money by the US. The money the USSR spent was from the West.

The European war was fought with Russian troops, British intelligence, and American money. Also, there was an entire other war in the Pacific that the US fought at the same time. It's not possible for the Soviets to have spent more, just based on that fact alone.

[-] Miaou@jlai.lu 8 points 3 months ago

You know Russia was also involved in the east right? God American education is hopeless

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[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 7 points 3 months ago

The Soviets could not have won without the Lend Lease, even Stalin admitted this.

Of course, if Stalin hadn't murdered half of their officers and had an icepick put in the brains of the guy who built the Red Army in the first place it might have been a different story.

[-] uis@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago

You still didn't say that USA would have won without UK, France and USSR

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[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago

The US showed up at the tail end of WW1 and mostly just spread around influenza.

[-] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Slapped a "Spanish flu" sticker on it to make them take the fall too

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[-] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

Meh. Don't get me wrong, the USA joining world war 1 was the final nail in the coffin and likely cut the war short by a lot (and made it a slam dunk for the allies, instead of a pyrrhic victory), but compared to, say, Canada or Australia (not to mention the UK and Russia that both lost as much, if not more men than France) they basically didn't fight. They joined very early and were invaluable in holding french territories throughout the war, which is why they both suffered more losses than the USA even though their militaries (and populations) were way smaller.

WW2 USA was an absolute juggernaut though

[-] Classy@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

Very true, it's how we crushed the Japanese, too. They were almost literally clearing neighborhoods for reclaimed metal and wood, converting entire towns into production facilities and even with that, they paled in comparison to the productive giant of the Goblino. Their zeroes might take 3 planes out of ours, and we would replace them three-fold and with more experienced pilots. They were forcing young pups into dilapidated old craft at the risk of great military disgrace to Kamikaze us because they knew they had no better options. The horrors we faced in the Pacific were truly abject, but it still would have been remarkable to be a wallflower back then and see the collective gusto that we managed to pull together, and all while still maintaining a perfectly functional economy with a massive swathe of our workforce overseas. I read somewhere that the US was using not more than 20% of our manufacturing capacity towards munitions and craft, and even then we were absolutely devastating the Axis.

[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 3 months ago

Had the USSR capitulated to the Germans, there was a real risk that the UK would follow as the German war machine could refocus its efforts. India would likely have fallen soon after to the Japanese. At that point, the German production base, which was already heavily geared up, would have access to all the resources it could possibly need, and the US would have had serious trouble defeating them. It would be a race to the A-bomb and who could produce them the fastest most likely, although it's questionable how effective the weapon would be with a consolidated Luftwaffe without a continental power keeping them busy.

Without the British, intelligence efforts against Germany would have significant issues. It's possible that the USSR would capitulate due to this.

Without US lend-lease, the USSR would have capitulated as well, and with only the British standing against Germany hope would have been lost.

The German war machine was extremely powerful. It could not keep going forever of course, and in due time they would have failed. But had any major power not been in the war, Germany could likely have consolidated enough power to avoid successful invasions from overseas powers.

[-] UsernameIsTooLon@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Yea they brought it up on themselves lmao

[-] RestrictedAccount@lemmy.world 38 points 3 months ago

The US Confederates also lost 1 war.

So did the modern Japanese (also hugely racists).

[-] PyroNeurosis 15 points 3 months ago

I'd argue the Japanese didn't just fight one war, though. They at least managed to trounce the Russians.

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[-] fsxylo@sh.itjust.works 35 points 3 months ago

Their glorious leader pusses out like a bitch when he's about to get what's coming to him.

[-] Outsider9042@aussie.zone 30 points 3 months ago

To be fair, they did take on… the world.

[-] UnityDevice@startrek.website 30 points 3 months ago

You'd figure that would take about 5 seconds for the world to win, but weirdly, it was kinda close.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 20 points 3 months ago

It wasn't close. Plenty of countries hadn't joined in yet. Only European countries and allies were fighting directly.

[-] Aqarius@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

(It's a Norm Macdonald bit)

[-] GraniteM@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Jojo Rabbit (2019)

Jojo Betzler: What's going on out here?

Yorki: The Russians, Jojo. They're coming. And the Americans from the other way. And England and China and Africa and India. The whole world is coming. Help me with this ammo.

Jojo Betzler: And how are we doing?

Yorki: Terribly. Our only friends are the Japanese. And just between you and me, they don't look very Aryan.

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[-] fckreddit@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 months ago

Propaganda is helluva drug.

[-] RebiJes@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 months ago

A lot of their success is due to their tactic of rushing into the enemy without any care for supply lines and logistics. This often worked to their advantage but most of those early wins were not sustainable in the long run. It gave the impression that they were more powerful than they actually were.

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[-] HollowNaught@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

Haha yeah

Wonder who this reminds me of

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this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2024
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