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[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 139 points 11 months ago

I just want to say, for all the discussion of 'could they have...' it's important to remember that Germany was never going to conquer Russia, it was a stupid (racist) idea to get Hitlers 'lebensraum' and take out Stalin's 'Jewish Bolshevist' nation (heavy on the eye-roll there). Keep in mind that Germany didn't even get Moscow, which Napoleon had actually managed to (mostly) do, and Napoleon still lost for the same reason that Germany would have regardless -- they did not have the logistical ability to support an army in an area the size of Russia. Partisan/army elements would absolutely pick apart a logistical train that long, which Germany couldn't have done any way. We have to remember Germany wasn't an actual mechanized army, it was entirely dependent on horses, and to try to use horses to haul ammunition/food/clothes/medical supplies/artillery shells/etc ~1500 kilometres from Germany to Moscow alone would be insane, especially with the millions of men and women the Soviet union had constantly attacking you.

The entire invasion was never going to work, and people give the idea it could have worked way too much credit. And this is all assuming no other nation would step in either; it's entirely on the 'nobody is in an alliance anymore' sort of fantasy world. This failed for the exact same reason that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has -- they planned for a short, easy war, because their entire ideology requires that they underestimate their foes at every available opportunity.

[-] Lemminary@lemmy.world 46 points 11 months ago

I like how passionate you are about this one detail about history. And, honestly? I would read your book about it. Lol

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Thanks, I appreciate that :)

[-] Justas@sh.itjust.works 22 points 11 months ago

Some Germans wanted to ally themselves with Poland and fight against Soviet Union together. Without Germany attacking Poland, France and United Kingdom would have not entered the war and history might have gone very differently.

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

It is true, if they hadn't done Nazi things and had actual allies they could have done better, for sure.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

We get into how you define victory over USSR. He thought the state would collapse, the infamous "kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will fall down". Then they would doubtlessly ethnic cleanse.

There was a difference between Napoleon's and Hitler's strategy. Napoleon went straight for Moscow like an arrow, ignoring everything else. He got it, but then what? Hitler saw that and knew that didn't work, so he launched a broad invasion on the North, Central, and South all at once. The goal was a total collapse, so that there wasn't much left to do military activity (not on any significant scale like with tanks and planes). Course there were other problems with that.

[-] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago

Another thing to note is people keep saying that if ideology didn't gimp the war effort, the Nazis would've won. However, the ideology was the whole reason the war even happened in the first place.

[-] TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Exactly. It's Fascism 101 - you invade anyone smaller than you to get slaves/money/etc, you pick scapegoats to blame for any issues you have, and you steal everything not nailed down, and then you move on to the next place. Eventually you pick a fight you can't win, and then you lose.

Part of them losing that fight was two of my grandparents, and I'm kinda pissed we're dealing with them again. So I want to reinforce: If a country goes fascist, this shit is coming. Nazi Germany was never going to win anything with an ideology that flawed.

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[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 98 points 11 months ago

Not only that, but they were also defeated by the cooperation of different nations that would let anyone join if they wanted.

So the Nazis were literally defeated by diversity and inclusivity.

[-] ameancow@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I have been involved in "big business" at several times in my life, someone actually gave me authority to build teams and create projects. I discovered that there are different schools of thought about what makes the "perfect team" to work on a project, and most managers go through the hiring process in mind of getting candidates that all are the same, all have the same personality, skillset and background, under the belief that homogeny makes for a more harmonious, predictable team.

Not me fam. I painted goddamn abstract art with a pallet of people. I got the most diverse teams I could, I got outspoken, angry black mothers alongside timid, pasty nerds alongside combat vets alongside immigrant chefs.

It took constant "babysitting" to make sure everyone was getting along and understanding each other, but we kicked ass. It's an amazing feeling putting together a team that can handle changes and can provide input on things you never thought of and who actually care about the results. Not only did we succeed at every challenge, I made lifelong friends and learned new things every day.

Diversity and inclusion is literally being used like a slur lately and it burns me. Diversity of backgrounds and perspectives is one of the most valuable strategic assets you can have around you. The people who surround themselves with people who already agree with them and have nothing new to add may pass challenges, but if you want to defeat challenges, you need a spectrum of perspectives.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 59 points 11 months ago

Fights one war

It was kind of a big one, though.

[-] whome@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 11 months ago

And pretty successful hat they stopped at a certain point

[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 26 points 11 months ago

There would be no way to stop. The German economy was really messed up by the Nazis. They essentially had no exports because they were producing mainly materiel for the war and were under an embargo anyway.

That means they had no way to get money besides literally taking it from conquered countries. The problem is, you can only loot once. This created a vicious cycle where they became more isolated and needed to conquer even more.

Honestly, before nukes existed, the Nazis could have been defeated by an embargo. But it would have cost more lives. Invading Germany saved lives and the nukes saved even more lives in Japan.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

The problem is, you can only loot once. This created a vicious cycle where they became more isolated and needed to conquer even more.

Fucks sake Adolf, I learned this from a few hours of a total war game. You think you'd have figured it out at some point.

[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 6 points 11 months ago

If only Adolf Hitler had played Total War, maybe he wouldn't have been such a lunatic smh

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[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 5 points 11 months ago

If anyone's interested in further reading the MEFO Bills are definitely interesting from an economic perspective.

I'm sure it wasn't the first army built on credit, but it was definitely the biggest.

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[-] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 58 points 11 months ago

Not to glorify nazis, but arguable they fought a whole bunch of wars against most european countries and won all of them until they came up against some big ones.

[-] Th4tGuyII@fedia.io 83 points 11 months ago

Arguably their biggest mistake was trying to fight both world superpowers at once, in the USSR and Great Britain backed by the US. I can't imagine how they thought that would go well, but thank fuck they did, cause I wouldn't want to see the world they envisioned.

[-] Pechente@feddit.org 62 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If you’re brainwashed by your own propaganda, attacking both superpowers probably feels like a good idea

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[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

Operation Bruhbarossa

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago

In their defense, they kicked the everliving shit out of one world power (France) already

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Not how wars work alliance against alliance, that's the point of an alliance.

[-] RestrictedAccount@lemmy.world 38 points 11 months ago

The US Confederates also lost 1 war.

So did the modern Japanese (also hugely racists).

[-] PyroNeurosis 15 points 11 months ago

I'd argue the Japanese didn't just fight one war, though. They at least managed to trounce the Russians.

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[-] fsxylo@sh.itjust.works 35 points 11 months ago

Their glorious leader pusses out like a bitch when he's about to get what's coming to him.

[-] Outsider9042@aussie.zone 30 points 11 months ago

To be fair, they did take on… the world.

[-] UnityDevice@startrek.website 30 points 11 months ago

You'd figure that would take about 5 seconds for the world to win, but weirdly, it was kinda close.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 20 points 11 months ago

It wasn't close. Plenty of countries hadn't joined in yet. Only European countries and allies were fighting directly.

[-] Aqarius@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

(It's a Norm Macdonald bit)

[-] GraniteM@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Jojo Rabbit (2019)

Jojo Betzler: What's going on out here?

Yorki: The Russians, Jojo. They're coming. And the Americans from the other way. And England and China and Africa and India. The whole world is coming. Help me with this ammo.

Jojo Betzler: And how are we doing?

Yorki: Terribly. Our only friends are the Japanese. And just between you and me, they don't look very Aryan.

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[-] fckreddit@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago

Propaganda is helluva drug.

[-] RebiJes@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago

A lot of their success is due to their tactic of rushing into the enemy without any care for supply lines and logistics. This often worked to their advantage but most of those early wins were not sustainable in the long run. It gave the impression that they were more powerful than they actually were.

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[-] HollowNaught@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Haha yeah

Wonder who this reminds me of

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this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2024
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