Personally, I don't see the issue. Microsoft shouldn't be responsible for when a third party creates a buggy kernel module.
And when you, as a company, decide to effectively install a low-level rootkit on all your machines in hopes that it will protect you against whatever, you accept the potential side effects. Last week, those side effects occurred.
Hard to say yet, if Microsoft is responsible or not. The thing is they certified it, as a stable and tested driver. But it isn't just a driver, but an interpreter/loader that loads code at runtime and executes it. In kernel mode. If Microsoft knew this they're definitely responsible for certifying it, but maybe crowdstrike hid this behavior until it was deployed to the customers.
It was my understanding that this wasn’t certified. Crowdstrike circumvented the signing process.
The driver was signed, the issue was with a configuration file for that's not part of the driver.
A configuration file shouldn't crash the kernel. I don't understand how this solution could pass the certification. I don't know the criteria of course, but on the surface it sounds like Crowdstrike created a workaround, and Microsoft either missed or allowed it.
How would you prove that no input exists that could crash a piece of code? The potential search space is enormous. Microsoft can't prevent drivers from accepting external input, so there's always a risk that something could trigger an undetected error in the code. Microsoft certainly ought to be fuzz testing drivers it certifies but that will only catch low hanging fruit. Unless they can see the source code, it's hard to determine for sure that there are no memory safety bugs.
The driver developers are the ones with the source code and should have been using analysis tools to find these kinds of memory safety errors. Or they could have written it in a memory safe language like Rust.
AFAIK, blue screen doesn't mean kernel crash. Hell, windows crashing isn't even rare.
Certification doesn't mean it has Microsoft seal of approval either, only that it comes from a certified and approved vendor, with some checks at best.
Config files are not part of the driver, ever. How do you think you can change the settings of you GPU without asking Microsoft?
But hey, if you are so willing to blame Microsoft for the one time it's not their fault, may I talk to you about our Lord Savior Linux? In my office we only knew because of the memes.
Oh FFS. I love this era where companies will not accept the blame due to "liability", even when they are explicitly to blame.
We all hate Microsoft for turning Windows into an ad platform but they aren't wrong.
They are legally required to give Crowdstrike or anyone complete low level access to the OS. They are legally required to let Crowdstrike crash your computer. Because anything else means Microsoft is in control and not the software you installed.
It's no different than Linux in that way. If you install a buggy device driver on Linux, that's your/the driver's fault, not Linux.
You are not wrong, but people don't want to hear it. Do we want to retain control over what goes into kernel space or not? If so, we have to accept that whatever we stuff in there can crash the entire thing. That's why we have stuff like driver signatures. Which Crowdstrike apparently bypassed with a technical loophole from how I understand it.
~~The thing is, Microsoft's virus-scanning API shouldn't be able to BSOD anything, no matter what third-party software makes calls to it, or the nature of those calls. They should have implemented some kind of error handler for when the calls are malformed.~~
~~So this is really a case of both Crowdstrike and Microsoft fucking up. Crowdstrike shoulders most of the blame, of course, but Microsoft really needs to harden their API to appropriately catch errors, or this will happen again.~~
I'm an idiot. For some reason, I was thinking about the Windows Defender API, which can be called from third-party applications.
I don't believe there was any specific API in use here, for virus scanning or not. I suppose maybe the device driver API? I am not a kernel developer so I don't know if that's the right term for it.
Crowdstrike's driver was loaded at boot and caused a null pointer dereference error, inside the kernel. In userspace, when this happens, the kernel is there to catch it so only the application that caused it crashes. In kernelspace, you get a BSOD because there's really nothing else to do.
I stand corrected. For some reason, I was thinking they used the actual Windows Defender API, which can be called programmatically from third-party applications, but you're correct, it was a driver loaded at boot. Microsoft isn't at all at fault, here.
I actually agree, I own my computer / OS and I should be able to do what you're saying (install and break things). But Microsoft is a trillion dollar multi national corporation and I am certainly going to give them grief about this because I owe them less than nothing, let alone any good will.
You are going to give grief to Microsoft for allowing what you want?
???
That doesn't make any sense. How does arguing against your position do anything but harm it?
Maybe just give them grief over the myriad negative things they do that don't counter your position?
But what if Windows have something similar to eBPF in Linux, and CS opted to use it, will this disaster won't happen at all or in a much smaller scale and less impactful?
Crowdstrike managed to fuck up Linux through eBPF just as well.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/7068083
If you load hacky shit into the kernel it can always find a way to make a nasty surprise. eBPF is a little bit better fence, not some miracle that automatically fixes shitty code.
We all hate Microsoft for turning Windows into an ad platform but they aren't wrong.
Sorry, how is that related to the stability of the kernel?
I explained in my second sentence.
"They are legally required to give Crowdstrike or anyone low level access to the OS."
If you install a buggy driver into Linux and it crashes, that's not a problem with the Linux kernel.
https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/linux-kernel-panic
Fuck Microsoft and fuck Windows.
But if you inject hacky bullshit third party code into someone's OS that breaks things, it's not the OS's fault.
But in this case Microsoft certified the driver. If they knew the driver included an interpreter that can run arbitrary code, they shouldn't have certified it because they can not fully test it. If they didn't know, then their certification test are inadequate. Most of the blame lies with the security software. If Microsoft didn't certify it, they would have had zero fault.
Certifying a driver is not an endorsement.
It is a verification that it is legitimately from who it claims to be from. Microsoft has zero fault, period.
The Windows Hardware Certification program (formerly Windows Hardware Quality Labs Testing, WHQL Testing, or Windows Logo Testing) is Microsoft's testing process which involves running a series of tests on third-party device drivers, and then submitting the log files from these tests to Microsoft for review. The procedure may also include Microsoft running their own tests on a wide range of equipment, such as different hardware and different Microsoft Windows editions.
For the Nth time, crowdstrike circumvented the testing process
Edit: this is not to say that cs didn’t have to in order to provide their services, nor is this to say that ms didn’t know about the circumvention and/or delegate testing of config files to CS. I’ll take any opportunity to rag on MS, but in this case it is entirely on CS.
I'm sorry, but competition is good.
Installing some closed blob into your kernel, that's on you.
The problem is if anything is not enough competition. We just saw a centralized monoculture fall over.
Blaming the EU is stupid MacOS is locked down, for the EU it’s more about apps less about the kernel space.
Security software are also "apps". Since Microsoft is also in the security software business locking down access for their competitors could definitely be seen as anti-competitive practices.
Apple doesn't have a monopoly with MacOS so other rules apply.
Meanwhile a Microsoft employee on how to prevent such an issue under Linux: https://www.phoronix.com/news/systemd-Auto-Boot-Assessment
a Microsoft employee
You're talking about good ol' Lenny like he isn't the author of the most used init and utility system as well as PulseAudio.
I know who that is and he's also a Microsoft employee these days which makes this a funny sequence of statements:
"EU bad because they made us open up Windows to 3rd party anti-virus vendors. Oh, btw, the fully open Linux operating system can cope with such a problem if properly configured. Here's the documentation to make that configuration."
Not only that, he specifically attacked "commercial operating systems" - it's anyone's guess which he meant - for not implementing it.
I don't know enough about Windows 10/11, but aren't they supposed to boot into a menu thet allows you to pick the last known good configuration before it evens boots to the gui?
The problem is with a specific file on the disk, not a misconfiguration
Apparently it’s because CrowdStrike installed their device driver as one that must start when Windows starts.
Explained here: https://youtu.be/wAzEJxOo1ts?feature=shared&t=675
I’ve linked to the specific time where he explains that issue, but tbh the whole video is worth watching.
I don't use Windows these days but I still enjoy Dave's channel
It's been a while since I had such a massive problem under Windows but the last time you could try to restore one of the last backups and usually that failed because Windows restore points are/were crap.
Yeah we tried that where I work (I'm not IT) and it failed. Safe mode didn't work either 'cause it couldn't authenticate the user for login as the server was down as well.
The document states that Microsoft is obligated to make available its APIs in its Windows Client and Server operating systems that are used by its security products to third-party security software makers.
The document does not, however say those APIs have to exist. Microsoft could eliminate them for its own security products and then there would be no issue.
Is this even relevant? Wasn't it a kernel driver module?
It's a third party kernel module, which Microsoft would love to be able to block, but legally can't. It's technically possible to write a virus scanner that runs in user space instead of the kernel, but it's easier to make sure everything gets scanned if it's in the kernel.
even when it was the bears I knew it was regulation and taxes.
I'm pretty sure that if Microsoft provided a decent way to do what Crowdstrike does, most companies would opt for that.
So... Sucks to suck I guess.
Why should MS do that? I guess if they saw a market value for it, they could. Like how Defender came to be after 20 years of third party anti-virus.
They certainly developed the tech for it - I remember reading about some of their research circa 2000 making the OS and everything on it a database. They've kind of been working that direction for years (see MyLifeBits).
I suppose they could provide an add-on tool for this, but I suspect there's a political barrier (imagine the blowback of MS providing such a tool).
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
