Ladybird web browser now funded by GitHub co-founder, promises ‘no code’ from rivals : foss

[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 5 months ago

Who cares? It’s run by reactionary incels, transphobes, and racists.

Wait until you find out who runs Lemmy development.

[-] Vodulas@beehaw.org 28 points 5 months ago

Good news, most folks at beehaw know and the admins have decided to move to a new platform

[-] remington@beehaw.org 50 points 5 months ago

Correct. We're moving to Sublinks very soon. Buckle up.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 21 points 5 months ago

oh boy I can't wait for all of the integrations to break

also is it just me or is deciding what software you use and do not pay for based on the political views of the people who create it (who again in no way benefit from its use by people who don't donate) incredibly fucking stupid

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 15 points 5 months ago

Don't call people "incredibly fucking stupid". Be(e) nice.

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[-] chamomile@furry.engineer 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

@AVincentInSpace @remington The Lemmy devs are infamously difficult to work with. They've repeatedly shown an unwillingness to even acknowledge the existence of the many problems that instance admins face. That has been a big driver in Beehaw's decision to move platforms, not just because of a difference in political views, and they've been pretty open about discussing it. You're way off-base.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 13 points 5 months ago

Do you know what topic brought you here?

"Hey guys, let's not use this free software, because of their views."

"Maybe we shouldn't use this other free software because of their views."

"Why are you guys worried about which free software you use based on their views?"

"We can all tell you aren't new, why are you complaining about our unofficial pastime?"

[-] millie@beehaw.org 10 points 5 months ago

It's almost like the philosophy behind a software matters to its long-term stability. Like, as if devs might find reasons to, I don't know, reject PRs, ignore bugs, and trash their users when they come to them for help.

Weird that the content of someone's mind might affect their actions or be an indicator of what level of trust they should be extended!

[-] Cube6392@beehaw.org 9 points 5 months ago

Programming is a form of communication. When you develop a piece of software, it will intrinsically be biased to boost the kinds of messages you believe in. This is both because you as a person think about problems a certain way, and because the code you write is meant to convey to others how you were thinking about the problem you were trying to solve. Who heads projects and how they communicate with their community matters to what the product produced will become, not just because of how the leads will think about the problem, but also because people who don't get along with them won't wind up contributing. Beehaw requested moderation tools that the lead lemmy Devs didn't view as valuable. The result is beehaw, reasonably, gave up on getting PRs merged and issues tracked in the issue tracker, instead choosing to look at Sublinks which was explicitly started in response to Lemmy's devs not behaving well with their own development community.

And for anyone saying Sublinks is splintering the Lemmy Dev community, no, lemmy's devs did that themselves

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[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 5 months ago

Will it federate with Lemmy? I would miss you folks.

[-] remington@beehaw.org 16 points 5 months ago

It's my understanding that it will...I believe that's, also, what it means when they (Sublinks developers) said it would be "Lemmy compatible".

[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

That could also mean client API-compatible, so Lemmy apps would work with it, which doesn't address federation.

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[-] apotheotic@beehaw.org 12 points 5 months ago

I am overjoyed to hear that we'll be staying in the fediverse and I can stay with beehaw.

[-] remington@beehaw.org 11 points 5 months ago

It will be "Lemmy compatible", so hopefully all of Lemmy apps should work fine.

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[-] delirious_owl@discuss.online 11 points 5 months ago

The demo on that link is literally Lemmy lol

[-] Ephera@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago

Is it maybe that they're using the Lemmy frontend, but Sublinks for the backend? But yeah, still a bit weird...

[-] Auzy@beehaw.org 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

deleted - moved instance

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[-] highduc@lemmy.ml 13 points 5 months ago

Lemmy devs are awesome. 1 more reason to use the platform.

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[+] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 53 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

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[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 45 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Didn't they fly off the handle on someone for politely pointing out that the text shouldn't use the word "he" and assume that every user is male?

That's not political, thats flat out unprofessional. I would think it's a pretty junior mistake if any of my colleagues filed a non-gender neutral PR in the first place, and would flat out fire them if they ever reacted to a review that unprofessionally.

[+] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 27 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

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[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 15 points 5 months ago

I found both sides rather aggressive to be honest. The implication that the use of "he" implies that the author assumes every user is male comes with an implied accusation of some form of misogyny.

No, it didn't. Go read the PR, it's extremely polite. I in fact, would challenge you to try and think of a more polite and less accusatory way of bringing up the same issue. I can't.

Furthermore, the "generic he" has also been acceptable English for centuries, and has only been starting to be phased out in the past few decades.

Yeah, you know what else has only been around for the past "few" decades? Literally every single computer and piece of software ever made, you know what literally none of them do? Refer to their users as "he".

You want to make it sound like it's a simple ESL mistake? That's fine you're welcome to believe that, but do you know how I respond to translation mistakes when I'm speaking a foreign language? I laugh and say oops, sorry, my mistake I'll fix that. I don't say "don't bring your politics into this".

I'm sorry but you are making up a fantasy to try and believe that the author wasn't being an explicit asshole.

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[-] pop@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago

I found both sides rather aggressive to be honest.

This was what I thought as well. The PR was a simple request that I thought wasn't political at all, just a matter of inclusion which I thought fit. Kling got aggressive thinking it was a political move or some shit then the rest piled on calling him names and such.

I think he just thought it was bringing politics into his project, I don't think he was taking any sides at all but people made up their minds. His silence is a bit concerning, probably ignoring it all but, whatever, It's his project.

[-] millie@beehaw.org 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I mean, the whole point is kind of that the problem is getting defensive rather than making a change.

That's the root of a lot of these problems. People are intimidated by 'wokeness' because they think that caring about how they affect other people means that if they have the wrong idea they're irredeemable. Clearly that isn't compatible with continuing to feel alright about themselves, so they become defensive and double down. But the reality is, if they'd just like, quit it with the callousness and cruelty they'd be eliminating the problem to begin with.

Lack of acknowledgement of there being an issue becomes the primary motivator for making the issue worse.

It's like becoming a hoarder because you're too embarrassed to acknowledge what a mess your house is to clean it. Rather than pick the trash up off the floor, they shout about how clean their house really is and how deluded we all are for talking about the smell.

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[-] Steve@communick.news 49 points 5 months ago

Sometimes terrible people can do good things.
Those good things should be supported.
Judge a project on it own merits.

People still use the Autobahn.

[-] Vodulas@beehaw.org 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

"What about the good things Hitler did?" Is not the flex you think it is. Also, using the Autobahn does not send support to Nazis

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 11 points 5 months ago

Using Lemmy without donating to the developers does not send support to them. Same goes for Ladybird, does it not?

[-] Vodulas@beehaw.org 13 points 5 months ago

Adding to popularity does support them.

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[-] Recant@beehaw.org 14 points 5 months ago

Great analogy and perspective.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 22 points 5 months ago

It's not that great an analogy because the autobahn isn't still maintained by Nazis.

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[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 13 points 5 months ago

Sometimes terrible people can do good things. Those good things should be supported. Judge a project on it own merits.

The thing here is that Ladybird and SerenityOS are both the community and the code. One cannot live without the other because the code will always need its community to develop it. And in this case, it is not possible to support them without supporting the people who, y'know receive the money. I think nobody is arguing against an independent browser engine - the argument is against the implementation of it.

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[-] LukeZaz@beehaw.org 21 points 5 months ago

I've no love lost for the developers in question. But between the original two PRs and associated comments being from over three years ago, and the "trans woman [being called] 'spam" comment being said about a PR that seems pretty strongly to me to be meant as a sarcastic insult rather than a genuine contribution, I can't help but find it a little unconvincing.

It's not without merit by far. I feel that Kling's blog post not addressing the drama was in poor taste and may indicate a lack of self-improvement regarding the initial fuckup, and saying you want to "avoid alienating people" when closing a PR that aims to improve inclusivity is more than a little pathetic. I also understand not wanting bigots to be able to just bury their past and pretend they were never bigoted. It's just that the fiery response this has gotten still ends up feeling a bit disproportionate given how old the truly insulting issues were. Am I missing something?

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[-] narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee 16 points 5 months ago

I do, I feel like we desperately need some more competition/options in the browser engine space.

[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 16 points 5 months ago

“reactionary”. Self-aware much?

I do not know either of you.

That said, on the one hand we have a guy that trivial research reveals has been dramatically transparent about his own life, struggles, and frailty in a really humble and disarming way. He shares his talent freely not only with code but mentorship and teaching. He has created a thriving and closer-knit community working together to do interesting and valuable things ( OS and browser ). His somewhat famous tagline is “well, hello friends”. He has also showcased both his wife and other females on his channel. Unless I misunderstand the term “incel”, you are demonstrably and factually wrong on that front at least. The biggest complaint I could find about him elsewhere is that his is “too neutral”. Perhaps that is at play here.

On the other hand, we have somebody directly peddling destruction, slander, and hate ( you ). And why? As far as I can tell, the only contribution the SerenityOS founder has made to this “discussion” is the sentence “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.”. Is that really it? Overreaction?

That sentence spawned all of this? I must have misunderstood which of you we were labelling as “reactionary”.

Regardless of if the project should have accepted the commit or not ( a valid debate ), I cannot possibly side with this reaction. It is awful.

Downvotes welcome. I would rather be ethical than popular.

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[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 15 points 5 months ago

Oh didn't you hear? It's fine now because a PR was finally accepted well after being called out and ~~stepping down~~ stepping aside from the project

/s

[-] DmMacniel@feddit.org 13 points 5 months ago

Imagine that talking with people about issues and not just shouting and brigading them actually works. Who would have known.

[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 23 points 5 months ago

Like the first time it came up, politely with a complete PR, and it was just shut down?

[-] DmMacniel@feddit.org 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

you mean this one https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 three years ago? yeah that was not the nicest reaction. Bridgading in that old thread and the thread about the accepted and merged PR was not nicest reaction as well.

Also the merged PR was way more of substance and didn't just replace he with they in that one line whereas there were several occasion where that issue occured in the same file. If the original one would have been merged, the documentation file would be inconsistent.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 17 points 5 months ago

As someone who hasn't bothered to read any of the detail about this whole mess until just now, the comments from three years ago were all relatively civil, even if the response by the developer was dismissive. That this was corrected within 6 weeks and people are still talking about it is pretty impressive, though. Looks like people are trying to make enemies, not converts.

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