"Cool, what form does your agitation come in?"
"Encouraging apathy, and demonization of the only non-fascist candidate with a chance to win without suggestion of realistic alternatives"
"Cool, what form does your agitation come in?"
"Encouraging apathy, and demonization of the only non-fascist candidate with a chance to win without suggestion of realistic alternatives"
Most "agitators" on here can't even vote.
Did you get an opportunity to suggest realistic alternatives? Or did the Democratic party steamroll your local primary and rob you of your voice?
I did. I suggested Bernie. Not enough people agreed with me, apparently.
Thats lucky, we were not given any choices in my state, we had no discussion, no primary debates, and no discussion as to the viability of running with Biden.
I love Bernie, but his real shot was 2016 and the Dems blocked his path so they would not have to have a real vote which would have embarrassed Hillary.
His real shot was 2020, and he got outpolitiked.
and now you have to work with the representative you ended up with, just like the rest of us.
Unlike you, however, I'm working to keep the fascist from being my next representative. Seems that having a fascist at the head of our government doesn't bother you all that much. You might want to do some soul-searching as to why that is.
It bothers me, but it also bothers me that my own representative is supporting fascism himself.
It clearly doesn't bother you enough to stop you from working to see the fascist elected so the representative supporting longstanding-but-dogshite-foreign-policy can 'learn his lesson'.
I don't think he ought to lose because of this issue, I think he'll lose because of this issue all on his own.
You're free to disagree with the method of agitation but it comforts me (barely) that you would at least still support him if he were to change his position on this. It's my bet most people on the fence would, too.
I don’t think he ought to lose because of this issue
No, you don't think he 'ought' to, you're just Doing Your Part to make sure he does. Like drilling holes in a boat to protest the captain bailing water instead of filling the holes.
Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win. That is a reductive argument and its the root of the issue with the system in the US. Picking the lesser evil is not a viable method for electing people to positions of power. What if the dems also nominated someone openly fascist, not just genocidal?
Would we pick the least fascist, fascist? The Democratic party needs reform, and unlike the Republican party they might actually listen because they at least say they will. Its either that or were already in a fascism and were being gas lit by the democratic party to think we have a voice.
Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win.
Might not be what they want, but it's more likely what they'll get.
It is in fact what they are choosing to make more likely by promoting not participating. You go to effort for goals you wish to achieve regardless of what lie you tell and to whom about your intent.
Just because someone does not want to vote for Biden does not mean they want Trump to win.
Oh, yes it fucking does. That's what a FPTP system implies. That people failed High School Civics and seemingly still managed to get their degree isn't a refutation of this.
That is a reductive argument and its the root of the issue with the system in the US. Picking the lesser evil is not a viable method for electing people to positions of power.
It's the only means; it's just more naked under FPTP which effectively reduces the issue to two, instead of three or four.
What if the dems also nominated someone openly fascist, not just genocidal?
It's not the case, so suck it the fuck up and work against fascism.
If it was the case, the right decision would be revolt.
Would we pick the least fascist, fascist? The Democratic party needs reform, and unlike the Republican party they might actually listen because they at least say they will. Its either that or were already in a fascism and were being gas lit by the democratic party to think we have a voice.
Being told that voting strategically for the 'no' vote in an election that is effectively a referendum on whether or not America should become a fascist state is the only real choice is not 'fascism', unless you define fascism as 'reality'.
If you choose not to decide, others shall choose for you. Others as in the Evangelical Nat-Cs, they always Vote.
But do please drone on about your purity and how sullied and corrupt all of us in the real world are.
If I were encouraging apathy, I'd be trying to get people to ignore an important issue by arguing 'change simply isn't realistic so it's better to just shut your eyes to it'
Sorry, but what are you encouraging then? Like, what's the ask?
OP's only ask is "feel bad enough about Biden and the Democrats to stay home in November." That's it. That's the whole thing.
I just noticed the username, and I've argued with this guy before. You're spot on, he does not have a sincere argument.
See my response to themeatbridge.
The goal is to stop democrats from continuing to support a genocide (min) and a genocidal project (max)
The route is through moderates, who would really like to not talk about this issue, because while it is something they agree with, pointing to something bad that they are contributing to threatens to weaken their voting base. Any political agitation necessarily implicitly makes that threat, and it's intentional, because otherwise the moderate would have no reason to push for it.
Ok, but that's an aspiration, not an action plan. What are you asking people to do? Who should they vote for? Where should they make political donations? Imagine you have convinced someone you're right. What's their next step?
So your aim is only to cast aspersions on Democrats, got it.
Surely you're aware of the two-party system of politics in the United States, one where if Democrats lose, Republicans win, and those Republicans will do the genocide you claim to hate so much even harder, not to mention royally fucking things up for huge swaths of people domestically, handing Ukraine over to Russia (which extends to directly threatening the rest of Europe/NATO), and walking away from Taiwan, for starters.
You don't want to "end genocide," you want to get Republicans elected.
Hey now let’s not forget, abandoning Ukraine and Taiwan means that Russia and China get to do some genocide as well.
That was implied.
Discourage apathy by putting your fingers in your ears and shout about how impossible making any positive change is instead!
"Changing 50 years of foreign policy on an issue most American voters don't regard as important (however horrific that is) isn't going to happen because the left-wing is threatening to let a fascist take power; that's literally the opposite of the scenario that should be happening for improvement"
most American voters don’t regard as important (however horrific that is)
This is quite literally the thing we're trying to change.
Reasonably speaking - how do you propose to do that? How do you propose to switch the primary issues of concern for the American electorate from domestic security (including the safety of LGBT folks, immigrants, and democracy itself) and economics (at a time when many are pressed hard by the current economic situation) to foreign policy?
Treating this as an honest question - by raising the issue so that it can't easily be ignored.
Just gonna put this here, because MLK says it better than I can:
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.
That presumes that the issues you're raising are going to raise tension above the tension of the aforementioned issues, which is extremely unlikely in the current circumstances.
My point isn't "STOP RAISING AWARENESS", my point is "This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don't get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists"
“This is not the winning issue you think it can be; and threatening to hand power over to fascists if you don’t get your way is just going to hand over power to fascists”
This is a contradictory statement.
Putting your fingers in your ears to drown out the sound of the Overton window screeching to the right is a much better alternative.
What's more ridiculous is when the so called "moderates" only criticize progressives and never conservatives.
Like, one side wants full on fascism, the other wants healthcare instead of genocide...
If you're "in the middle" of those two groups, and you spend more time fighting for genocide and against healthcare than you do fighting the fascists...
That says a lot about your personal values.
It makes sense for both ends to work thru the middle. Which is of course why republicans skip the middle and attack the far left with moderates.
It's a 2-1 fight, has been since before they united to stop FDR from getting us universal healthcare 80 some years ago.
It’s a 2-1 fight, has been since before they united to stop FDR from getting us universal healthcare 80 some years ago.
Oh, please. FDR would be derided as a right-wing capitalist pig in the pockets of Big Corporations by the same people agitating today.
This starts with an opponent who agrees with you in principle--that's Democrats. This has no advice for you if a Republican is in office. Yes, criticize Dems, ignore Republicans, and vote for the party you have hope of moving, even against their will, or over the bodies of their leaders.
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