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nuanceposting (lemmy.cafe)
submitted 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) by spujb@lemmy.cafe to c/memes@lemmy.world

Important clarification/FAQI am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!

I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)

Very good comments that express key points:

Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:

Be decent to one another

I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don't fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.

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[-] hypnicjerk@lemmy.world 110 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.

when people don't have problems, you can't sell them solutions.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 74 points 8 months ago

The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.

The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.

Let's also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Those who do not move do not notice their chains.

Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 36 points 8 months ago

Here's Orwell in "Homage to Catalonia":

"There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen's wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun."

This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.

These issues don't go away just because people become class conscious.

[-] pmk@lemmy.sdf.org 17 points 8 months ago

If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.

[-] SapientLasagna@lemmy.ca 5 points 8 months ago

I don't think this is a good example of class struggle, at least not directly. The bear meme is valid in as much as it describes one woman's feelings, but the truth is that in 85-90% of cases, the woman knows her attacker^1^. The random man is simply not the issue.

The issue is power disparity. Teacher vs student, employer vs worker, landlord vs tenant. It's difficult to reduce the power difference due to physical strength, but the others are all changeable. More (meaningful) oversight for police, better tenancy boards, and stronger unions are all examples of structures that might make it harder to victimize women.

Class struggle explains economic, and maybe political power, but those are not the only types of power in play.

And if I'm wrong? Then we've made a better society for nothing.

^1^ https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker

[-] hypnicjerk@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

i fundamentally agree with you. i think it depends on how loosely you define 'direct'. class struggle has its fingers in many pies including

  • marketing saturation / materialism
  • mental health availability
  • quality of education
  • overall day-to-day stress levels

all of which are at odds with encouraging a more empathetic, happy, and healthy population of men. people who are angry and fearful and deprived are easier to control and sell products to than people who are kind and understanding and satisfied. a higher quality of life breeds a higher quality of people and interpersonal interactions.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.ca 70 points 8 months ago

Social media doesn't often reward kindness, but that's what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 33 points 8 months ago

So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.

I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.

I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.

Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.

[-] Kedly@lemm.ee 42 points 8 months ago
[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 23 points 8 months ago

no u ❤️

[-] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 38 points 8 months ago

we need a nuance posting rule on the internet i think.

For every sensational shitpost you must provide at least one nuance.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 26 points 8 months ago

honestly i would smash the subscribe button so hard on a c/nuanceposting community. verbose and carefully worded memes are my absolute jam. 😎🙂‍↕️

[-] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 8 months ago

eudaimonia on dbzer0 has what is essentially the spiritual precedent to that community. You'd probably like it, it's not super busy or anything right now, but we could always use more users over there.

No memey shit over there though, it's pretty explicitly focused on the underlying aspects of this kind of stuff.

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[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 31 points 8 months ago

Those young men should also choose the bear. If we explained that to them, and why, maybe the next generation wouldn't need to.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

I mean, I'm a man getting to the point where I'm entering the "No longer young" decade, but I'd take the bear. People are less predictable than bears. I don't want to be isolated from civilization with ANY stranger.

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

It's exactly this. A bear is a bear. Known quantity. Likely to leave you alone, and you're in his space. A man? Possibly fine. Possibly gonna do some bad stuff. Why is he even there? Who knows!

People are really bad at risk calculations. Bears just aren't that risky by comparison.

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[-] ChexMax@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

Honestly I think if you gave them the same choice, they'd pick bear too. Bear or a man who has on average 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than you. He is also 93% likely to be gay. Now you might be in the forest with your nice and normal gay neighbor and have a totally lovely time! Or you might get one of those gay priests who just want to rape you repeatedly. Which do you pick? Man or bear?

That's a lot closer to the choice women are making.

Source on average difference of male to female strength https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm

[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 34 points 8 months ago

What the fuck is any of this

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[-] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago

I think you're misunderstanding the point of the meme then

[-] surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

Not really. It's saying to soften the language. I disagree. I say explain the language and why that level of anger is justified. The boys will quickly realize and be told that it's not about them. They'll likely also be just as mad at the s*** that goes on.

Kids are smart. If you tell them that women would pick a bear because a small percentage of men rape a large percentage of women, they'll get that.

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[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago
[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 27 points 8 months ago

You are all arguing about bears, but I am over here day dreaming

NSFW

[-] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 17 points 8 months ago

Uhhhhhhh.....what a horrible day to be literate

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 9 points 8 months ago

Nothing like some vintage copy pasta to sear your brain

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

yeah, he spelled exquisite wrong, 0/10 would not read again

[-] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 19 points 8 months ago

Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏

[-] Bonehead@kbin.social 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

This whole thing is completely blown out of proportion. The fact that young disenfranchised men are getting upset that women they don't know are choosing a bear over them says that they are taking it personally when it's not.

If you're a young man, and the people around you have decided they would rather choose the bear over you, that's a sign that you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself about why they would do that. What have you done that would make them decide that. And if you extend that feeling to random women that you don't know, then you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself why you feel that way. You don't know the lived experience of random women. You don't know why they would choose certain death over you. Taking it personally only shows your immaturity. You can't control how other people feel. You can only control yourself. If you want to understand why women around you would choose the bear, maybe try asking them nicely and actually listen. Empathy works both ways. Showing some will encourage people to reciprocate.

[-] PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

It's not certain death. Bears are predictable, you can easily scare a bear away or play dead. Random men are unpredictable. As a man, I would much rather ruin into a beat than some sketchy dude who wants to rob me or wear my skin as a coat.

[-] Bonehead@kbin.social 12 points 8 months ago

But that's just it. It's not about the bear. It was never about the bear. It's about women not trusting unknown men, and the men who get offended by that. Anyone that insists on predicting what the bear would do, or wants to discuss statistics of bear attacks, is missing the point. It's distracting away from the actual conversation.

Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men. Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment. But it's not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better. The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear. Not get upset that a random woman doesn't want to be alone with them. Not proclaim they'd also choose the bear because they don't want to be alone with some sketchy man. Not convince them that the bear is statistically more dangerous. Just simply listen and try to understand. That's all. When you learn to control yourself and empathize, you'll find others that will do the same. And then maybe some of those women will choose you over the bear...

[-] MargotRobbie@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago

OK, seriously, I thought I've spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.

So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies' complete disregard for the Kens' feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.

Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.

[-] neo@feddit.de 12 points 8 months ago

I'm not gonna lie, the grammar of that first sentence is quite confusing to simpleton like me.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 4 points 8 months ago

fixed hopefully :)

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it's trying to say.

[-] bigschnitz@lemmy.world 39 points 8 months ago

It's claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago
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[-] sparkle@lemm.ee 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.

There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right's form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you're superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it's so much easier to get people on your side if you're allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.

And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they're "not real men" by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a "real man" or a "real woman", they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.

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[-] SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 8 points 8 months ago
[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 18 points 8 months ago

i know ur meming but it’s good to know what doublethink is and how this is not that :)

[-] OozingPositron@feddit.cl 6 points 8 months ago

Ah yes what a fun meme, so much haha's were had.

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[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 6 points 8 months ago

POST RESTORED THABK YOU MODS

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this post was submitted on 12 May 2024
589 points (100.0% liked)

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