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The White House has confirmed that Ukraine is using US cluster bombs against Russian forces in the country.

National Security Spokesman John Kirby said initial feedback suggested they were being used "effectively" on Russian defensive positions and operations.

Cluster bombs scatter multiple bomblets and are banned by more than 100 states due to their threat to civilians.

The US agreed to supply them to boost Ukrainian ammunition supplies.

Ukraine has promised the bombs will only be used to dislodge concentrations of Russian enemy soldiers.

"They are using them appropriately," Mr Kirby said. "They're using them effectively and they are actually having an impact on Russia's defensive formations and Russia's defensive manoeuvring. I think I can leave it at that."

The US decided to send cluster bombs after Ukraine warned that it was running out of ammunition during its summer counter-offensive, which has been slower and more costly than many had hoped.

President Joe Biden called the decision "very difficult", while its allies the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Spain opposed their use.

The vast majority sent are artillery shells with a lower than 2.35% "dud rate", a reference to the percentage of bomblets which do not explode immediately and can remain a threat for years.

The weapons are effective when used against troops in trenches and fortified positions, as they render large areas too dangerous to move around in until cleared.

Russia has used similar cluster bombs in Ukraine since it launched its full-scale invasion last year, including in civilian areas.

Reacting to the US decision to send the bombs, Russian President Vladimir Putin said his country had similar weapons and they would be used "if they are used against us".

Oleksandr Syrskyi, the Ukrainian general in charge of operations in the country's east, told the BBC last week that his forces needed the weapons to "inflict maximum damage on enemy infantry".

"We'd like to get very fast results, but in reality it's practically impossible. The more infantry who die here, the more their relatives back in Russia will ask their government 'why?'"

He added however that cluster bombs would not "solve all our problems".

He also acknowledged that their use was controversial, but added: "If the Russians didn't use them, perhaps conscience would not allow us to do it too."

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[-] meteotsunami@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ukraine MOD has a program in place that databases every cluster munition fire mission. Demining eastern Ukraine is going to be a years long effort. Any unexpended ordinance will go into that effort. Countries that gave up cluster munitions have had their rose tinted glasses on too long and assumed war would be limited to foreign battlefields and not their back yards.

[-] cantstopthesignal@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago

Ukraine is the country that is using them and they are the country that will have to clean them up. Seems pretty consensual.

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[-] lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago

Sounds like they're working. Good.

[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago

The war propaganda is working as intended

[-] GONADS125@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Who's got a rampant history of war crimes and genocide again?....

. . . .

Oh yeah, fucking russia!

[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago

Oh yeah fucking NATO *fixed it for you

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Good thing NATO isn’t in this war then.

[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 year ago
[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

If NATO was actually in this conflict it would be over already

[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 year ago

Proxy war. Amazing that I am the bad guy for being against war crimes and ww3...

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[-] GONADS125@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Whataboutism. Classic from the russian playbook!

We're not discussing NATO; we're discussing Ukraine being invaded by russia, who has committed genocide against Ukrainian civilians.

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[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Regarding peace talks people here seems to want In February 2022 peace could have been made but NATO /US called up Boris Johnson who went to Ukraine the stop it and successfully did so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

What's happens in Ukraine have been a topic for papers since the 1990s . It's a proxy war where two competing oligarch fractions are fighting for dominance.

As Afghanistans president said Ukraine should have learned from them. When elephants dance...

The propaganda is so total that people rather see cluster bombs than peace. Fuck that.

[-] GONADS125@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

Russia has repeatedly broken peace treaties and ceasefires with Ukraine. Their word means jack shit.

Next you're going to suggest we just need to sit down for a reasonable conversation with Kim Jong Un...

And speaking of misinformation/propoganda, nice job trying obfuscate from the fact that Ukraine is fighting for their own sovereignty against an aggressor who's committed genocide against their citizens, (with a recent history doing so in Syria as well).

You're either purposefully peddling propoganda under the guise of a warning, or you've hypocritically fallen victim to it while warning against it. Either way, your statement is devoid of reality.

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[-] Cloud_keeper@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

What peace negotiations with Russia would result in Ukraine keeping its sovereign territory?

[-] ModdedPhones@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago

You mean the part where Ukraine has been ethnically cleansing for a decade and were the people living there want out of Ukraine?

[-] tram1@programming.dev 24 points 1 year ago

Many countries (not the US, Russia, or Ukraine) consider cluster bombs illegal. I worry seeing people applauding the use of such weapons...

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

I’d prefer they don’t get used, but my preference for Russia to get the fuck out of Ukraine is much greater. They’re mapping their usage and south and eastern Ukraine will need extensive UXO clearing with or without the use of cluster munitions.

[-] tram1@programming.dev 13 points 1 year ago

That's basically the excuse for every war crime...

[-] kokiriflute@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

Russia was using cluster munitions long before Ukraine. Ukranians are using the cluster munitions on their homeland to defend it. If people didn't want cluster munitions to be used, then Russia should not have started using them.

[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago

American here. Cluster bombs, like any munition are weapon of war and are designed to kill. In a war, the goal is to end it as quickly as possible and if a cluster bomb can accomplish that goal faster more efficiently then I say use them.

Should you be dropping cluster bombs on cities full of civilians? Obviously not. But an open battlefield situation filled with trenches and tanks, they are effective tool.

In any case, it's not like Ukraine and Russia are not firing other high explosive weaponry, bombs and mines are littering the landscape and will for hundreds of years to come. The only difference at this point is the delivery method of these weapons. There will be no shortage of unexploded ordinance left on the landscape after the war is over.

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[-] thatguydude@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Fair is fair in love and war

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[-] yeather@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago

The tankies really came out for this one huh

[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 10 points 1 year ago

War is hell. That statement is both true and has lost all meaning, because no one really feels it.

We should be negotiating a peace by now. The suffering of these cluster bombs cause is immeasurable, as is the general suffering of this war.

Imagine

spoilerbeating a puppy to death with a golf club
. Imagine the whole thing vividly, and then imagine
spoilerpushing the pulpy body aside
and doing it again, and just repeating this exercise ad nausium for hours and hours. This is the kind of feeling we should experience when we read stories about this conflict, if we had any concept of what a war is. And when we debate whether to use cluster bombs, that's like debating whether to use
spoilera nine iron or crush the puppy's skull slowly with a boot
. One is definitely, definitely DEFINITELY WORSE, and should NEVER BE DONE, but both are awful and should make us so physically ill to think about that we would do anything at all -- such as negotiate a ceasefire! -- to avoid doing it.

[-] artifice@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago

What an idealistic and utopian view. A sovereign country has been invaded, it has the right to use weapons it deems necessary to defend itself. What's so difficult about that? Russia can pack up and go home, then there will be peace.

[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago

Not to mention, Russian forces have been using these types of munitions, but with much higher dud rates, already.

It’s their soil. They can do what they want to it.

[-] MidwestMayonaiseSalad@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

And the ruskies are using them in civilian targets.

Beyond that, know what else has a chance of exploding well after the war and injuring or killing someone?

You know what both Ukrain and Russia have already use many thousands more of than Ukraine has been issued cluster munitions?

You know what no one is moralizing about so hard they shit their pants?

::: Landmines :::

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[-] DreamerOfImprobableDreams@kbin.social 40 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Friendly reminder Russia is committing atrocities in the occupied territories. So any kind of negotiated "peace" that involves Ukraine giving up territory means them consigning all their citizens living there to torture, random executions, wanton sexual violence, having their children taken away, and worse!

That's what you're calling for when you advocate a "negotiated settlement".

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[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

War is hell. That statement is both true and has lost all meaning, because no one really feels it.

We should be negotiating a peace by now. The suffering of these cluster bombs cause is immeasurable, as is the general suffering of this war.

Imagine

spoilerbeating a puppy to death with a golf club
. Imagine the whole thing vividly, and then imagine
spoilerpushing the pulpy body aside
and doing it again, and just repeating this exercise ad nausium for hours and hours. This is the kind of feeling we should experience when we read stories about this conflict, if we had any concept of what a war is. And when we debate whether to use cluster bombs, that's like debating whether to use
spoilera nine iron or crush the puppy's skull slowly with a boot
. One is definitely, definitely DEFINITELY WORSE, and should NEVER BE DONE, but both are awful and should make us so physically ill to think about that we would do anything at all -- such as negotiate an end to the war! -- to avoid doing it.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 53 points 1 year ago

What is there to negotiate? Russia can end the war whenever they want just by going home. Do you think Ukraine should just abandon its citizens in the occupied territories to the whims of a genocidal maniac?

[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 10 points 1 year ago

I don't have the energy for fights. Just look at some of the other comments I posted. The TLDR is that we need to always be guided by actually acting in the interests of vulnerable Ukrainians, and that requires ending the war, and negotiation is how wars end. It's not surrender, it's not appeasement, it's how wars end even when you win. What's happening now is mostly driven by US interests to weaken a geopolitical foe and is totally divorced from concern for the people on the ground. Cluster bombs prove it.

I don't think you or me or anyone in this thread would ever, ever support the use of cluster bombs in a place where we intended to raise our children or children's children. Does that make sense? Their use is just evidence that hurting Russia is the point. Negotiation is how you do the actual thing people seem to believe fighting does.

[-] DontAskAboutUpdog@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago

Russians are more dangerous than land mines. Even if you had to make that area impossible to live in, it is still better than having russians there.

[-] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
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this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2023
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